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Pro12 Growth 
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Llew wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
The problem is one of the balance of power.............Efforts should be made to ensure that the balance is kept even as I don't think there will be the sustainability on rugby that football has......


That's a good point, clearly on show in the Franglais cup, where the differences in the teams' assets are massive. How you level the field though is not easy. The Franglais both use salary caps in an attempt to keep the brakes on some of the big power brokers. How effective that is in the manner it's policed is another contentious issue. The recent mess PRL made of trying to instigate it recently, highlights how difficult it is to control. And while they drive the market ever further forward, the rest are desperately trying to keep up. Your point though is valid, how long can it be kept up, and is it sustainable ? Everything has a tipping point. I don't know the answer, other than some form of NFL type system across Europe ? But, I really can't see any of the big guns entertaining any such step down to a level field. Why would they ?


The NFL owners came to realise that creating a more equitable league led to greater revenues all round, rather than a small number making money and the rest going bankrupt trying to keep up.


Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:42 am
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Higgik wrote:
Llew wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
The problem is one of the balance of power.............Efforts should be made to ensure that the balance is kept even as I don't think there will be the sustainability on rugby that football has......


That's a good point, clearly on show in the Franglais cup, where the differences in the teams' assets are massive. How you level the field though is not easy. The Franglais both use salary caps in an attempt to keep the brakes on some of the big power brokers. How effective that is in the manner it's policed is another contentious issue. The recent mess PRL made of trying to instigate it recently, highlights how difficult it is to control. And while they drive the market ever further forward, the rest are desperately trying to keep up. Your point though is valid, how long can it be kept up, and is it sustainable ? Everything has a tipping point. I don't know the answer, other than some form of NFL type system across Europe ? But, I really can't see any of the big guns entertaining any such step down to a level field. Why would they ?


The NFL owners came to realise that creating a more equitable league led to greater revenues all round, rather than a small number making money and the rest going bankrupt trying to keep up.


As did the players

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Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:49 am
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
What I would like to see (well 'like' is a strong word) is a line graph per match over the seasons.

The matches can be skewed by the fixture in question (e.g. an Italian team at home is the lowest attended) and the World Cup also effects attendance.

I haven't looked at the figures in detail but it looks like unemployment rates are falling in Wales. I would argue that having a job is the biggest factor in attending a match.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37360503


Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:53 am
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Also, I would be interested in what the employment rate is in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Italy for travelling fans.


Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:55 am
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Cymru am byth wrote:
Also, I would be interested in what the employment rate is in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Italy for travelling fans.


You say having a job is the biggest factor for attending a match but don't provide any detail. Can you explain?

Are you saying having a job means you are more likely or less likely to attend a match? Are you saying this applies to all fans or fans from one particular region/country?


Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:15 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Cymru am byth wrote:
Also, I would be interested in what the employment rate is in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Italy for travelling fans.


We have examined social circumstance in the past and I can vouch for unemployment in France and general economic circumstances in the SW France and general epicentre of french rugby.

As stated earlier in this debate we've been over a long range of components that affect gates and any singular discernible reason has emerged, inevitably perms and comms will apply but difficult to isolate.

here's some of the list that we've debated before :

-Population (within that parameter ... clusters, travel times, away support effects, ...)

-Weather/pitch quality/ Stadium ambiance

-Social circumstance of catchment

-Pricing and Season ticks special offers .. there had been statements that some of the bonanza gates had been ridiculously low priced entry, special offers S Ticks eg Osps had some special offers.. multiple for same value, etc and almost of a 'loss leading' type/nature .. this also served to boost recorded gate when S Ticks included in report. Debatable value in following Season increments resulting from the option)

-Free to air TV v other leagues pay to view. Pricing of pay to view and conflicting offers Euro competitions and leagues. Also league schedule TV coverage eg Top14 100%.

-Scheduling times of matches

-Stadium size, quite a few teams operate on capacity and woulkd have bigger gates if opportunity existed. Offsite bonanzas and some offsite occasions to promote the game also influences attendance.

-Of course performance and competitiveness!

-Drag along value of Gate wrt commercial sales

-The 'real' value of gate as apposed to total budget (lower importance in some leagues than others and influence of gate size on sponsorship attraction .. ie relation to bottom line).

I think that that is enough for now ...? ;)

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Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:17 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Pot Hale wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
Also, I would be interested in what the employment rate is in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Italy for travelling fans.


You say having a job is the biggest factor for attending a match but don't provide any detail. Can you explain?

Are you saying having a job means you are more likely or less likely to attend a match? Are you saying this applies to all fans or fans from one particular region/country?


I am only offering a very general view. My guess is that havig a job and job security are big factors in going to a game.

Tel presents a more comprehensive analysis than me.

But I would still argue that having money is the biggest factor.

For me attending a match (international) will usually involve a day out, meal, travel, drink and maybe a taxi to the train station. This might easily be a £150 day out. Not something I can afford very often (I only went to the Judgement day matches this year).


Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:32 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Cymru am byth wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
Also, I would be interested in what the employment rate is in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Italy for travelling fans.


You say having a job is the biggest factor for attending a match but don't provide any detail. Can you explain?

Are you saying having a job means you are more likely or less likely to attend a match? Are you saying this applies to all fans or fans from one particular region/country?


I am only offering a very general view. My guess is that havig a job and job security are big factors in going to a game.

Tel presents a more comprehensive analysis than me.

But I would still argue that having money is the biggest factor.

For me attending a match (international) will usually involve a day out, meal, travel, drink and maybe a taxi to the train station. This might easily be a £150 day out. Not something I can afford very often (I only went to the Judgement day matches this year).


Well I agree that having sufficient money is a factor in whether you can go to a match. I generally attend club matches, test matches not so much. Going to a match on a Friday evening or Saturday means cycling to train station, buying a return ticket, walking to stadium, watching a match, having a half-time pint, and going home again. Cost about £36. I go to 12-13 league/cup matches a season. Sometimes, 1-2 test matches a season if the ticket prices are ok.


Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
As listed above, imo, no particular factor can be treated in isolation and even if it is there would not be anything exceptional with regard to the others.

e.g inevitably catchment size could be in some instances affected by travel distance, whether that particular geography had TV free to air, and a general social circumstance would be influence by pricing and all this across different countries, currencie rates etc ..

Ultimately too the overall business effect is an important factor and more or less influenced by other factors.

Treat any of them in isolation may be interesting but the overall effect very debatable without the inclusion of the others.

A very difficult equation.

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Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Tony Panties wrote:
As listed above, imo, no particular factor can be treated in isolation and even if it is there would not be anything exceptional with regard to the others.

e.g inevitably catchment size could be in some instances affected by travel distance, whether that particular geography had TV free to air, and a general social circumstance would be influence by pricing and all this across different countries, currencie rates etc ..

Ultimately too the overall business effect is an important factor and more or less influenced by other factors.

Treat any of them in isolation may be interesting but the overall effect very debatable without the inclusion of the others.

A very difficult equation.


In summary, it's life.


Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:19 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Pot Hale wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
As listed above, imo, no particular factor can be treated in isolation and even if it is there would not be anything exceptional with regard to the others.

e.g inevitably catchment size could be in some instances affected by travel distance, whether that particular geography had TV free to air, and a general social circumstance would be influence by pricing and all this across different countries, currencie rates etc ..

Ultimately too the overall business effect is an important factor and more or less influenced by other factors.

Treat any of them in isolation may be interesting but the overall effect very debatable without the inclusion of the others.

A very difficult equation.


In summary, it's life.


Doesn't stop sociological studies and analysis but I tend to agree that it doesn't really get anybody anywhere :D

I have spent a very significant time amassing 'ProRugby as a Business' data and trying o create an interactive model of the various components and ultimately some trend or compound indicators.

The finest value result at the mo is the degree of conflict between components that at first sight appear similar have differences that may not be exceptional but when considered with others rapidly go out of kilter:wtf:

However, à la Magnus M....'I've started so ....'

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Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:28 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
TV audiences are a direct result of Sky Sports broadcasting the Pro12. Localised (BBC2 Wales, S4C and the like) broadcasters are never going to compete. With muppets like Jonathan Davies saying "what's on the other channel, Jesus this is rubbish...." Isn't helping matters. Guy is a funny bloke but *fupp* me, needs a kick up the arse during commentary.


Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Aye sky are very much on message when promoting any sport. I watched the scarlets blues game on sky and they almost had me believing the ball in play time reflected international standard!

There is the game, and then the presentation of the game such as commentary, camera, hype etc.


Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:42 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
For those who argue to get rid of the Italians:

Even though Italy are classified as a Tier One country, in reality they are more akin to Georgia and Romania than to New Zealand or even Wales, and it takes time to be truly competitive and we can help them with that. I advocate that we should go back to being a Pro 10, which'll mean few if any games played during international periods and bigger crowds to see the real stars played more often. There is already talk of Zebre being axed; however, imo they should just have one team in the former Celtic League rather than try yet another franchise, and at least some of the former Zebre players could move to Benetton Treviso and make it more truly competitive. As for Wales, the Dragons ought to be axed, with the better players transferred to the Blues.


Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:31 am
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
The whole of European rugby needs to take a good look at itself with regard to finance.

Many English and French teams are relying on Sugar Daddies and are spending more than they earn.

The situation will end up like football where only a few teams can compete financially and the rest will either go bankrupt trying or admit that they are just feeder teams for the elite.

There needs to be a fair system in place like NFL where salary caps and revenue sharing create a competitive league.

On the note of the Italians, it would make much more sense for them to play in the French league, especially in terms of costs, which would be much less for them and in turn would save money for the Celtic 10.

My version of French rugby Champs would be to combine Top 14 with ProD2 and 2 Italian teams to make a 32 team league, playing the same regular season fixture list as NFL with 16 matches over 17 weeks, with 5 weeks of playoffs.

This shortening of the season would have a positive impact on the league, as the fewer games raises the stakes of each match and it also raises the intensity due to the improved 'freshness' of the players.

There would also be more teams for pro players, giving FFR more players.


Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:18 pm
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