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SA v Eng 
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Post Re: SA v Eng
Farrel and co have to step up and ignore what they did well, it makes no odds as they threw away a 21 point lead. As an Englishman i am not proud of them, as they keep making the same mistakes and errors time and again, and the talk of the positives with the negatives seen as an aside. Woodwards England were the best team in the World and world champions for a reason, they never let success get to them, they were never happy in defeat or victory, and focused on what they needed to improve. Eddies England enjoy massaging their egos in success and defeat, and that is why they will be remebered as also rans and failures unless they change their attitudes.

Wearing your national jersey and playing at the top level is an honour, enjoying success and achievements is something to be done after you have finished, we are doing none of that at present but doing some self congratulation even in defeat which is even more remarkable after boneheaded penalties and throwing away a lead that i would expect a minis team to hold onto. That is and always will be wrong. I saw 23 losers today coached by losers, if they want to be be number 1 in the world they need to learn from the world cup winning era and also from players and coaches from dominant teams how to go about things.


Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:28 pm
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Post Re: SA v Eng
I can kinda understand being outplayed, the thing that is most irritating about England is the amount of self-inflicted problems we cause. Everything from piss poor discipline to not supporting the runner or competing in the breakdown. These are all things that are within our power to try to change and there is no evidence that Jones is taking any of those issues seriously.

After this tour, short of some signings we will be without an attack or defence coach... That is just unacceptable, although it looks like we are already without a defence one.

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Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:43 pm
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Post Re: SA v Eng
So why have England regressed? What are they doing differently from what they were doing in the previous two years?


Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:04 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
*fupp* knows, the players certainly look more lethargic than they did when Jones first took over. Back in 2016 we were ferocious in defence, now we tend to sit back and let our opposition run at us. Our discipline has gone to pieces...

It feels like the players hearts are no longer in it, almost like Jones has sapped the side of all their drive and desire. Watching England there just never seems to be any sense of urgency nor any desire to react to anything unfolding in front of them any more if it requires putting in effort. Despite the bullshit Jones is coming up with, this is looking more like a side that don't want to be out on the field. The impression I get is almost like a dictator where everyone says the right things to the camera but behind the scenes have no motivation to do anything.

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:24 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
Is there a problem with Eddie Jones? Is he simply too abrasive and too demanding? Is the training under his regime simply excessive? It seems odd.
Personally I thought England were decent in the Six Nations and a bit unlucky to finish fifth but the defensive side of their game is surprisingly poor at the moment.


Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:28 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
Pearcey3 wrote:
Is there a problem with Eddie Jones? Is he simply too abrasive and too demanding? Is the training under his regime simply excessive? It seems odd.
Personally I thought England were decent in the Six Nations and a bit unlucky to finish fifth but the defensive side of their game is surprisingly poor at the moment.


He is known as an abrasive characters who is a bit of a control freak and has a history of grinding teams into the ground. The thing is I compare the side he inherited, which was essentially Lancasters side, and compare it with the side now after he has had his time to stamp his own mark on it. Without a shadow of a doubt the 2016 side would tear the current side apart. The combination of Lancasters training with that extra bite of Jones coaching was the perfect combination. Now we are seeing the impact of Jones' coaching along with possible fatigue issues and it certainly doesn't look like we are getting better. Our fall is almost as bad as the one SA faced and even they have now beaten us. I have a feeling we could see England produce their longest losing streak under Jones at this rate.

It is salvageable, our attack was vastly improved at the start. With some skilled and strong assistants to solve the technical aspects of the game and Jones not sticking to his less than stellar favourites, I think England could compete again. The main issue is Jones seems to take every case where the results are questioned as a personal attack and so is extremely reluctant to address them.

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:35 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
Troron wrote:
Pearcey3 wrote:
Is there a problem with Eddie Jones? Is he simply too abrasive and too demanding? Is the training under his regime simply excessive? It seems odd.
Personally I thought England were decent in the Six Nations and a bit unlucky to finish fifth but the defensive side of their game is surprisingly poor at the moment.


He is known as an abrasive characters who is a bit of a control freak and has a history of grinding teams into the ground. The thing is I compare the side he inherited, which was essentially Lancasters side, and compare it with the side now after he has had his time to stamp his own mark on it. Without a shadow of a doubt the 2016 side would tear the current side apart. The combination of Lancasters training with that extra bite of Jones coaching was the perfect combination. Now we are seeing the impact of Jones' coaching along with possible fatigue issues and it certainly doesn't look like we are getting better. Our fall is almost as bad as the one SA faced and even they have now beaten us. I have a feeling we could see England produce their longest losing streak under Jones at this rate.

It is salvageable, our attack was vastly improved at the start. With some skilled and strong assistants to solve the technical aspects of the game and Jones not sticking to his less than stellar favourites, I think England could compete again. The main issue is Jones seems to take every case where the results are questioned as a personal attack and so is extremely reluctant to address them.


English rugby is bigger than one petulant coach. Still time to right the ship with the talent and depth you have.

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:22 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
Jones was verbally insulted by some supporters as he made his way down the tunnel after his side's 42-39 defeat. Shock.

And? Lose and lose again and he'll be losing all his rep. Is he losing the dressing room as well?

England do have a lot of players but where's the leadership?


Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:02 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
Pearcey3 wrote:
Is there a problem with Eddie Jones? Is he simply too abrasive and too demanding? Is the training under his regime simply excessive? It seems odd.
Personally I thought England were decent in the Six Nations and a bit unlucky to finish fifth but the defensive side of their game is surprisingly poor at the moment.

The English were the worst team in the tournement at the time apart from Italy, subsequent results underline this fact.
A place like England with such a huge population to pick from should be doing better, it will be interesting to see if they can turn it around this summer, if they dont Jones position might be in doubt.

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:25 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
As a country we have the ability and potential to be better than we are, grass roots is healthy, the money is certainly there, the acadamies are developing players nicely, and we have age grade national teams that do very very well. Couple this with one of the best top divisions at club level and things look rather good.

The problem seems to be that last step to first XV test level, we constantly fail to achieve - Wooodward aside - what we should be achieving when you look at how lucky we are with the money and resources at our disposal. Eddie is just one in a number of coaches that achieve a little then start losing a lot. The fact he had the players coaching themselves without an attack coach over the 6 nations was awful, and our attack reflected that. Our defence, which was very good, has over the last 12 months dissolved, and that must reflect on Paul Gustard (at least he is going though). But England needs a group of coaches that work together and cover all bases, thus we must recruit a permanent replacement for Gustard and also a full time attack coach.

What irks me the most though is that when the pressure comes on a fair few players lose their self control, Itoje had a day to forget, Makos yellow was a Marler level of stupidity (and i mean that to be interpreted as a very low level as Marler is not someone i like at all, and is just a waste of space due to his lack of discipline at test level), and the needless high tackles, off sides and not rolling away or releasing was embarrassing. Top teams keep their heads when the heat comes on, we are failing time and again on that count, it is not a one off but a repeat ad naseum each test when we are under the pump. So no matter how talented this team are, nomatter their potential, no matter the resources at their disposal they will never be winners of anything if they cannot keep their cool when everyone around them is losing theirs.


Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:23 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
wombles wrote:
As a country we have the ability and potential to be better than we are, grass roots is healthy, the money is certainly there, the acadamies are developing players nicely, and we have age grade national teams that do very very well. Couple this with one of the best top divisions at club level and things look rather good.

The problem seems to be that last step to first XV test level, we constantly fail to achieve - Wooodward aside - what we should be achieving when you look at how lucky we are with the money and resources at our disposal. Eddie is just one in a number of coaches that achieve a little then start losing a lot. The fact he had the players coaching themselves without an attack coach over the 6 nations was awful, and our attack reflected that. Our defence, which was very good, has over the last 12 months dissolved, and that must reflect on Paul Gustard (at least he is going though). But England needs a group of coaches that work together and cover all bases, thus we must recruit a permanent replacement for Gustard and also a full time attack coach.

What irks me the most though is that when the pressure comes on a fair few players lose their self control, Itoje had a day to forget, Makos yellow was a Marler level of stupidity (and i mean that to be interpreted as a very low level as Marler is not someone i like at all, and is just a waste of space due to his lack of discipline at test level), and the needless high tackles, off sides and not rolling away or releasing was embarrassing. Top teams keep their heads when the heat comes on, we are failing time and again on that count, it is not a one off but a repeat ad naseum each test when we are under the pump. So no matter how talented this team are, nomatter their potential, no matter the resources at their disposal they will never be winners of anything if they cannot keep their cool when everyone around them is losing theirs.


England have prime opportunity.

No doubt intensive schedules and Club/Country contention are inhibitors ....The Season 2017/18 just completed had a series of 15 players exempted for various reasons from Eng preparation. There is published concern by RFU at the injury level throughout the hierarchy of player echelon. Lions tour follow up always a problem. Open warfare is prevalent, ...Jones/Craig, Players Union etc ..Players threatening action etc ...

Whilst RFU/PRL have a signed agreement and sensible Pro Board set up.... Club governance is there and manifests itself in EPCR PRL presence and priority.

This cannot be ignored
-----------------

On another front Coaching .....

Big money attracts the egotistical 'Super' Coaches like Jones.

These coaches can motivate successful change but they can also dominate to a degree that supercedes gut, technical coaching.

Classic case, ..Lancaster is proving his worth with Leinster BIG TIME, not the limelight type but a very important technical cog in the overall management wheel

I can see the difference between Schmidt and Jones and Scmidt like Cotter build teams of players and coaching expertise.

I think that Woodward and Jones are similar insomuch as their objective is/was W Cup winning. Woodward created his own departure after w Cup win, ...he knew that the success was achieved but at the altar of futures. England must build for continuous success and not just short term objectives.

Just taking a different 'less tachnical' tack to the situation ;)

I have studied a worse situation in France where Club/Country issues dominated and the Union was the lesser player.

As posted the new Convention does seem to be strategic and intent on installing a pyramid like joint perspective which is long term.

Sometimes apparent 'wealth' can. disguise and promote the poverty of consistent, comprehensive success where the shit hits the fan, ...on the field at all levels.

Rant over.

I think England are buggered for upcoming W Cup and immediate futures. The team ethic isn't there and Indoubt the dressing room/Coach motivation.

Certainly England are not getting the bang for their extensive bucks and that is poor business and the Executive need to have a good hard look at themselves ;)

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:13 am
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Post Re: SA v Eng
Put simply I don’t think Premiership rugby helps the international team... number of games, attrition etc

And I’m just not sure why England cannot produce back row forwards of sufficient quality. Fact robshaw is still plodding away at 6 is a problem

Front five is usually fairly strong and Cole will come in to sort out that scrum... George, itoje, mako all good players but the 6 and 7 are weakest of all home nations. Billy is coming back from numerous injuries and Hughes has never convinced


Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:19 pm
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Post Re: SA v Eng
England have a wealth of talent and should be at least the no 2 side in the world.

But as of now they are clearly lacking confidence ,energy and an ability to think
on their feet and address any onfield problems out of the ordinary.

Also I think Jones's selection policy is awful . Three examples of this from yesterday

1.He pulls the 2nd row off 35 mins but has no replacement 2nd row on the bench
so England get mullered in the tight and only lineout option left is Otoje

2.Marler on the bench - an impact sub(finisher) - ludicrous

3.Curry injured and comes off leaving a back row of Hughes,Billie V and an exhausted
Robshaw whose been playing 2nd row badly for part of the half.Turnovers now not
possible as no-one get to the breakdown in time.

I feel sorry for Shields making his debut amidst this muddled thinking.


Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:44 pm
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Post Re: SA v Eng
I wouldnt underestimate the progress Lancaster had with the England squad that Jones inherited. Unfairly dismissed in my view. He came up with a long term plan based on mentoring and development and it was starting to take effect. Jones was lucky enough to inherit the fruits of this which partially explains the start.

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:16 pm
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Post Re: SA v Eng
The yellow Vunipola got in the '63 min did not help. At that time Springboks bench of Kitshoff (red head) P-S du Toit and warthog (Akker van der Merwe) were really playing well.
Erasmus new Springbok coach strengths are team selection given the 50/50 black composotion required by govt.
For one the young gun from the bulls RG Snyman at lock. I have seen the Lions (sa) tight five pushing the Sharks around and 2 Sharks in the Springbok frontrow but Springbok scrum settled.
At 3-24 down I could see it weren't due to lack of commitment but rather disorganised at the start...new team and defense coach JP worked a week with them. Cannot say the same on Engand's defense they leaked onevto many and it is something to work on. Good start from a SA perspective in the new coaching era of Erasmus

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:20 pm
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