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RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018) 
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
BigRed wrote:
10 - 42 to Baby AB's.
Really, the difference was composure and doing the basics right.
What the hell is wrong with our coaches?
Wales have too many brain farts on the field instead of knowing when to stick to basics.
Very disappointing because the match could have been and should have been a lot closer.
AB's were not great but they just stuck to a game plan and made fewer mistakes.
Surely it is not brain surgery?
The only area where I thought we were physically deficient was our loose forwards.
Time and again they were just swatted away.


The big difference for me was nous.
Conditions were awful, even with some attacking potential NZ kicked wisely and always tried to ensure that the game was played in the opponents half.


That's not rocket science but it ain't easy to engender in-flight options into a team.

The Welsh senior squad is an aching example of lack of resort to other in-flight options.

Such skills come from confidence in individyual, unit and team capability and skills.

That is not easy to coach and achieve and shouldn't be dismissed with the likes of 'the game should have been a lot closer' ...and …..composure.

An opinion.

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Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:54 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
10 - 42 to Baby AB's.
Really, the difference was composure and doing the basics right.
What the hell is wrong with our coaches?
Wales have too many brain farts on the field instead of knowing when to stick to basics.
Very disappointing because the match could have been and should have been a lot closer.
AB's were not great but they just stuck to a game plan and made fewer mistakes.
Surely it is not brain surgery?
The only area where I thought we were physically deficient was our loose forwards.
Time and again they were just swatted away.


The big difference for me was nous.
Conditions were awful, even with some attacking potential NZ kicked wisely and always tried to ensure that the game was played in the opponents half.


That's not rocket science but it ain't easy to engender in-flight options into a team.

The Welsh senior squad is an aching example of lack of resort to other in-flight options.

Such skills come from confidence in individual, unit and team capability and skills.

That is not easy to coach and achieve and shouldn't be dismissed with the likes of 'the game should have been a lot closer' ...and …..composure.

An opinion.

Yes and No. :D
There are certain attributes that are endemic in Wales rugby.
Slow clearance of the ball by the SH allowing for the opponents to counter ruck and turn the ball over.
We saw that in both of Scarlet's matches against Leinster.
This a coaching problem. We saw it today against the AB's and to a lesser extent we saw it against Oz.
Most times it is the forwards hanging back from the ruck and the slow clearance of the ball by the SH.


Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:52 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
BigRed wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
10 - 42 to Baby AB's.
Really, the difference was composure and doing the basics right.
What the hell is wrong with our coaches?
Wales have too many brain farts on the field instead of knowing when to stick to basics.
Very disappointing because the match could have been and should have been a lot closer.
AB's were not great but they just stuck to a game plan and made fewer mistakes.
Surely it is not brain surgery?
The only area where I thought we were physically deficient was our loose forwards.
Time and again they were just swatted away.


The big difference for me was nous.
Conditions were awful, even with some attacking potential NZ kicked wisely and always tried to ensure that the game was played in the opponents half.


That's not rocket science but it ain't easy to engender in-flight options into a team.

The Welsh senior squad is an aching example of lack of resort to other in-flight options.

Such skills come from confidence in individual, unit and team capability and skills.

That is not easy to coach and achieve and shouldn't be dismissed with the likes of 'the game should have been a lot closer' ...and …..composure.

An opinion.

Yes and No. :D
There are certain attributes that are endemic in Wales rugby.
Slow clearance of the ball by the SH allowing for the opponents to counter ruck and turn the ball over.
We saw that in both of Scarlet's matches against Leinster.
This a coaching problem. We saw it today against the AB's and to a lesser extent we saw it against Oz.
Most times it is the forwards hanging back from the ruck and the slow clearance of the ball by the SH.


We differ, coaching problems aren't, imo, to fix obvious deficiencies ....that's the easy bit.

Prime teams such as the NZ versions have a self confidence and a developed skill set that percolates the individual, unit and team and the chemistry created by that confidence and faith, ....it is an evolution within the pyramid and the pyramid is entire and really inseparable into an almost culture.

This may sound 'pie in the sky' a touch philosophical maybe but I believe that it is not just engineered but evolved and just part of a process.

I refer back to a report by a visitor that scrutinised the NZ ethic .....it is the fruit of a fullfilled and carefully planned and managed aspect over time.

Coaches inherit the evolution not really set about same or different direct action.

Having said all that, NZ rugby does have cyclic success but one that exceeds others.

I don't think we should look at "the result should have been closer" we should be building towards a similar competitive ethic.
Rant over :D

PS I don't suggest a copy of the NZ model, cultures and types and genetics can be very different, ... but I do suggest a radical insight to a more deeply thought coaching and rugby cultural pyramid that does consider motivational and team confidence issues above the more technical aspects and the integrated pyramid type ethos is essential

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Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:36 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
10 - 42 to Baby AB's.
Really, the difference was composure and doing the basics right.
What the hell is wrong with our coaches?
Wales have too many brain farts on the field instead of knowing when to stick to basics.
Very disappointing because the match could have been and should have been a lot closer.
AB's were not great but they just stuck to a game plan and made fewer mistakes.
Surely it is not brain surgery?
The only area where I thought we were physically deficient was our loose forwards.
Time and again they were just swatted away.


The big difference for me was nous.
Conditions were awful, even with some attacking potential NZ kicked wisely and always tried to ensure that the game was played in the opponents half.


That's not rocket science but it ain't easy to engender in-flight options into a team.

The Welsh senior squad is an aching example of lack of resort to other in-flight options.

Such skills come from confidence in individual, unit and team capability and skills.

That is not easy to coach and achieve and shouldn't be dismissed with the likes of 'the game should have been a lot closer' ...and …..composure.

An opinion.

Yes and No. :D
There are certain attributes that are endemic in Wales rugby.
Slow clearance of the ball by the SH allowing for the opponents to counter ruck and turn the ball over.
We saw that in both of Scarlet's matches against Leinster.
This a coaching problem. We saw it today against the AB's and to a lesser extent we saw it against Oz.
Most times it is the forwards hanging back from the ruck and the slow clearance of the ball by the SH.


We differ, coaching problems aren't, imo, to fix obvious deficiencies ....that's the easy bit.

Prime teams such as the NZ versions have a self confidence and a developed skill set that percolates the individual, unit and team and the chemistry created by that confidence and faith, ....it is an evolution within the pyramid and the pyramid is entire and really inseparable into an almost culture.

This may sound 'pie in the sky' a touch philosophical maybe but I believe that it is not just engineered but evolved and just part of a process.

I refer back to a report by a visitor that scrutinised the NZ ethic .....it is the fruit of a fullfilled and carefully planned and managed aspect over time.

Coaches inherit the evolution not really set about same or different direct action.

Having said all that, NZ rugby does have cyclic success but one that exceeds others.

I don't think we should look at "the result should have been closer" we should be building towards a similar competitive ethi
Rant over :D

PS I don't suggest a copy of the NZ model, cultures and types and genetics can be very different, ... but I do suggest a radical insight to a more deeply thought coaching and rugby cultural pyramid that does consider motivational and team confidence issues above the more technical aspects and the integrated pyramid type ethos is essential




Exactly.

BigRed you think, "composure and doing the basics right" is easily achieved :scratch: Its makes great players and great teams, its developed over a decade not a couple of training sessions. You dismiss it as if it is level one of a course, it is the destination of a long journey for the top players in the world.

I thught it was a far from great performance by NZ, which is probably just as well.

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“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:45 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
nz just looked too powerful to me...

Particularly in the backs which really caused wales problems early on

We can talk about the culture and all the joined up thinking etc... but in NZ there does seem to be an athletic level you have to meet... which was well in advance of some of the wales youngsters


Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:48 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
nz just looked too powerful to me...

Particularly in the backs which really caused wales problems early on

We can talk about the culture and all the joined up thinking etc... but in NZ there does seem to be an athletic level you have to meet... which was well in advance of some of the wales youngsters

Yes and No. :D
We were competitive until we made two stupid mistakes.
The tap penalty by our scrumhalf which caught all the Wales players napping thereby giving the ball away when we could have been camping down near their tryline. Then missing touch deep in their half and find ourselves back in our own half with a squeaky scrum.
This cost us fourteen points in the end. Not very bright and had nothing to do with physical ability.
It must have been heartbreaking for the team who tackled themselves to a standstill only to find stupid errors sent them back into their own half when they should have had an attacking position.
AB's do not make those stupid errors.
Then I've said enough about the forwards standing off leaving the SH to fight for the ball and losing it in the counter-rucking.
Rectify these errors and we would be much more competitive.
Yes, and coaching has a lot to do with it. It is not brain surgery. :dontknow:


Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:44 am
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Stockholm Blue wrote:
So for a semi-final we need South Africa to beat France with no bonus point for the French, and a win v Japan with a big points margin. Sound about right?


Italy and Arg both have 5 points and play each other in the last round, if either of them win with BP then they would beat Wales with 10 pts as best second??

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:52 am
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
That was a great game to watch.

The New Zealand young men showed the Wales young men what they need to aspire to in the coming years and that is a bonus for our U-20s. Learn from the best and you won't go far wrong in the future. Don't give away as many penalties though ….

The NZ opening try was tremendous - an arcing run from midfield to the left wing, two hand-offs and a stunning inside pass to a supporting runner who was running a line that was as straight as an arrow.

A sumptuous try but Wales then scored a well deserved try from the Baby Blacks' 3rd penalty in quick succession.

New Zealand's combined play was superb, of course, and their sheer power and skill at the contact point won them turn over after turnover as the Wales lads faltered.

Wales shipped 42 points in the end and New Zealand, as usual, kept hammering on to the last whistle.

Here's a match report - http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/matchcentre/40934.php


Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:47 am
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
10 - 42 to Baby AB's.
Really, the difference was composure and doing the basics right.
What the hell is wrong with our coaches?
Wales have too many brain farts on the field instead of knowing when to stick to basics.
Very disappointing because the match could have been and should have been a lot closer.
AB's were not great but they just stuck to a game plan and made fewer mistakes.
Surely it is not brain surgery?
The only area where I thought we were physically deficient was our loose forwards.
Time and again they were just swatted away.


The big difference for me was nous.
Conditions were awful, even with some attacking potential NZ kicked wisely and always tried to ensure that the game was played in the opponents half.


That's not rocket science but it ain't easy to engender in-flight options into a team.

The Welsh senior squad is an aching example of lack of resort to other in-flight options.

Such skills come from confidence in individual, unit and team capability and skills.

That is not easy to coach and achieve and shouldn't be dismissed with the likes of 'the game should have been a lot closer' ...and …..composure.

An opinion.

Yes and No. :D
There are certain attributes that are endemic in Wales rugby.
Slow clearance of the ball by the SH allowing for the opponents to counter ruck and turn the ball over.
We saw that in both of Scarlet's matches against Leinster.
This a coaching problem. We saw it today against the AB's and to a lesser extent we saw it against Oz.
Most times it is the forwards hanging back from the ruck and the slow clearance of the ball by the SH.


We differ, coaching problems aren't, imo, to fix obvious deficiencies ....that's the easy bit.

Prime teams such as the NZ versions have a self confidence and a developed skill set that percolates the individual, unit and team and the chemistry created by that confidence and faith, ....it is an evolution within the pyramid and the pyramid is entire and really inseparable into an almost culture.

This may sound 'pie in the sky' a touch philosophical maybe but I believe that it is not just engineered but evolved and just part of a process.

I refer back to a report by a visitor that scrutinised the NZ ethic .....it is the fruit of a fullfilled and carefully planned and managed aspect over time.

Coaches inherit the evolution not really set about same or different direct action.

Having said all that, NZ rugby does have cyclic success but one that exceeds others.

I don't think we should look at "the result should have been closer" we should be building towards a similar competitive ethi
Rant over :D

PS I don't suggest a copy of the NZ model, cultures and types and genetics can be very different, ... but I do suggest a radical insight to a more deeply thought coaching and rugby cultural pyramid that does consider motivational and team confidence issues above the more technical aspects and the integrated pyramid type ethos is essential




Exactly.

BigRed you think, "composure and doing the basics right" is easily achieved :scratch: Its makes great players and great teams, its developed over a decade not a couple of training sessions. You dismiss it as if it is level one of a course, it is the destination of a long journey for the top players in the world.

I thught it was a far from great performance by NZ, which is probably just as well.


Agree.

The other cliche I hate is being 'clinical'. What does that mean? Not making mistakes? Not no unforced errors? Better skills? I.e "better". It is almost said as if the players are meaning to go put and play rubbish.


Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:37 am
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
BigRed wrote:
10 - 42 to Baby AB's.
Really, the difference was composure and doing the basics right.
What the hell is wrong with our coaches?
Wales have too many brain farts on the field instead of knowing when to stick to basics.
Very disappointing because the match could have been and should have been a lot closer.
AB's were not great but they just stuck to a game plan and made fewer mistakes.
Surely it is not brain surgery?
The only area where I thought we were physically deficient was our loose forwards.
Time and again they were just swatted away.


The big difference for me was nous.
Conditions were awful, even with some attacking potential NZ kicked wisely and always tried to ensure that the game was played in the opponents half.


That's not rocket science but it ain't easy to engender in-flight options into a team.

The Welsh senior squad is an aching example of lack of resort to other in-flight options.

Such skills come from confidence in individual, unit and team capability and skills.

That is not easy to coach and achieve and shouldn't be dismissed with the likes of 'the game should have been a lot closer' ...and …..composure.

An opinion.

Yes and No. :D
There are certain attributes that are endemic in Wales rugby.
Slow clearance of the ball by the SH allowing for the opponents to counter ruck and turn the ball over.
We saw that in both of Scarlet's matches against Leinster.
This a coaching problem. We saw it today against the AB's and to a lesser extent we saw it against Oz.
Most times it is the forwards hanging back from the ruck and the slow clearance of the ball by the SH.


We differ, coaching problems aren't, imo, to fix obvious deficiencies ....that's the easy bit.

Prime teams such as the NZ versions have a self confidence and a developed skill set that percolates the individual, unit and team and the chemistry created by that confidence and faith, ....it is an evolution within the pyramid and the pyramid is entire and really inseparable into an almost culture.

This may sound 'pie in the sky' a touch philosophical maybe but I believe that it is not just engineered but evolved and just part of a process.

I refer back to a report by a visitor that scrutinised the NZ ethic .....it is the fruit of a fullfilled and carefully planned and managed aspect over time.

Coaches inherit the evolution not really set about same or different direct action.

Having said all that, NZ rugby does have cyclic success but one that exceeds others.

I don't think we should look at "the result should have been closer" we should be building towards a similar competitive ethi
Rant over :D

PS I don't suggest a copy of the NZ model, cultures and types and genetics can be very different, ... but I do suggest a radical insight to a more deeply thought coaching and rugby cultural pyramid that does consider motivational and team confidence issues above the more technical aspects and the integrated pyramid type ethos is essential




Exactly.

BigRed you think, "composure and doing the basics right" is easily achieved :scratch: Its makes great players and great teams, its developed over a decade not a couple of training sessions. You dismiss it as if it is level one of a course, it is the destination of a long journey for the top players in the world.

I thught it was a far from great performance by NZ, which is probably just as well.


Agree.

The other cliche I hate is being 'clinical'. What does that mean? Not making mistakes? Not no unforced errors? Better skills? I.e "better". It is almost said as if the players are meaning to go put and play rubbish.


Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:37 am
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Think there is a touch of intellectualisation going on here

The first try was a case of the backline missing tackles against quality power and pace.

Says it all when wales biggest and most athletic forward max Williams who was picked at lock... will probably play regional rugby at 6.

Don’t get me wrong I think the deeper comments are valid but is it a case of seeing what you want to see to make your argument (even if in the wider context it is right). The conditions I also though were a leveller and NZ could have stuck 90 points on wales if it was dry - as opposed to NZ managing the weather better


Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:33 am
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
The performance was fine for the first twenty odd minutes but thereafter it was awful.
Dreadful kicking out of hand, woeful line outs, poor handling skills, outmuscled at the breakdown, no game plan whatsoever.

The biggest disappointment was the seeming need to constantly kick possession away. It’s cowardly rugby. When you watch Ireland play they respect possession of the rugby ball. They recycle through ruck after ruck and retain possession phase after phase. They don’t panic.
With our national team and our under 20’s possession is too easily given away. They don’t seem able to construct a game plan. It might be that our players are simply not good enough but I would question how well these lads are actually being coached.


Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:09 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Pearcey3 wrote:
The performance was fine for the first twenty odd minutes but thereafter it was awful.
Dreadful kicking out of hand, woeful line outs, poor handling skills, outmuscled at the breakdown, no game plan whatsoever.

The biggest disappointment was the seeming need to constantly kick possession away. It’s cowardly rugby. When you watch Ireland play they respect possession of the rugby ball. They recycle through ruck after ruck and retain possession phase after phase. They don’t panic.
With our national team and our under 20’s possession is too easily given away. They don’t seem able to construct a game plan. It might be that our players are simply not good enough but I would question how well these lads are actually being coached.




If you are not producing quality players from a decent player base, then you must question "how well these lads are being coached" but that question is not a simple one. Perhaps the Welsh under 20 team coaches are asking the same thing. Where and how far back do we question, and do we base our conclusion on the correct information, indeed what factors should be used in the equation?

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:56 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
Pearcey3 wrote:
The performance was fine for the first twenty odd minutes but thereafter it was awful.
Dreadful kicking out of hand, woeful line outs, poor handling skills, outmuscled at the breakdown, no game plan whatsoever.

The biggest disappointment was the seeming need to constantly kick possession away. It’s cowardly rugby. When you watch Ireland play they respect possession of the rugby ball. They recycle through ruck after ruck and retain possession phase after phase. They don’t panic.
With our national team and our under 20’s possession is too easily given away. They don’t seem able to construct a game plan. It might be that our players are simply not good enough but I would question how well these lads are actually being coached.


I disagree, and it's not necessarily cowardly or wrong, nz kicked away possession but kicked it into positions where they ensured that play was largely in the Welsh half. Cute rugby.in the dreadful conditions.

and

Leinster and Ireland kick a lot especially in first half...they continually test opponents strengths under pressure (they follow up fast and have fierce bfeakdown capabiliy) They wear teams down and increase the attacking momentum as it presents itself and increasingly so.

France v Ireland and Racing v Leinster both denied them the opportunities they usually create with this gambit because their defence was solid and their breakdown capability more than matched the Irish equivalent.


Horses for courses and game plan is important and I must agree that kicking away possession must have accuracy and a more complete game plan to complete the circumstance.

As on another post I like to stress the coaching of players in confidence to meet circumstances and play what's in front of them.

Kicking possession is not necessarily a poor option, whatever is done should have a purpose and, importantly, be read and supported by the unit and team.

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:11 pm
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Post Re: RWC U20 Championship: Wales v New Zealand (Sun 03.06.2018)
There are numerous factors influencing why one population will perform better than another.

One thing that I often wonder about Wales, and maybe England too, is the emphasis on physicality. Unless you are a big or exceptionally skilled 13 year old, your interest in playing reduces when you are on the end of a hammering.

We must lose so many players that are late developers or players who are average and allow a team to be put forward. Players like me.

I don't know how it has changed since my day 25 years ago as a 12 year old for my local town team, I played U15 (there were no other youth teams I was eligable for).

I remember being a pretty small at the time, playing fully grown 15 year olds. After about 5 games for this team, got smashed and quit the town team altogether, and stuck to my school team, until I got older and bigger.

I'm not saying I was ever that good. But the only lads of my age that continued to play for that team were those that were bloody good and big and went all the way. One of them gaining international caps.

What the system lacks or (lacked?) Was the allowance for average players to be put into weight or size categories that would have placed more emphasis on skill. It is a catch 22 because you need enough players to do this.

In other words, I believe that muscle is still more important in this country. I will happily stand correcter if this has changed, I don't know how the system works.


Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:19 pm
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