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Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018) 
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Unless the NH Rugby Unions wrest the power off the millionaire owners it's only going to go from bad to worse.
Worse for rugby below the top professional club scene and above it internationally.
That's the reality the NH Unions and that means their members and the majority of rugby fans who aren't members have to accept and be willing to act on.

At the moment these millionaires are running top flight club rugby as a hobby in ways that they wouldn't contemplate running them if they were investing in and running actual profit generating enterprises.
A bunch of greedy, selfish, incompetent, irresponsible, self indulgent rich boys playing with their toys. Time the kindergarden teachers exerted some discipline and control before it's too late.


Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:20 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
najbritcol wrote:
Wales move up to fifth in the world: https://www.worldrugby.org/news/340112

For all the fuss made about the Jaguares, keep in mind that Argentina have only won SIX matches since the World Cup, which is by far the worst record of any Tier One nation apart from Italy. Argentina should be respected, but Wales should certainly not bow down to them and be frightened of them.


Because Argentina mainly play against sides which are better than they are, they lose a high proportion of their games, which also depresses their world ranking. So looking purely at those sorts of statistics can lead you to underestimate them. Italy suffer for the same reason - they've been consistently ranked lower than Georgia* and Fiji in the last couple of years and are even lower than Tonga at the moment, but are realistically better than those sides and would be favourites if they played one another tomorrow. I do think Argentina will definitely be favourites against us; that said I don't think we necessarily need to fear them and they are certainly beatable.

(Georgia are actually an example of the opposite in that they benefit somewhat from mainly playing weaker sides like Russia, Spain etc., which inflates their ranking).


Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:27 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
eog wrote:
Unless the NH Rugby Unions wrest the power off the millionaire owners it's only going to go from bad to worse.
Worse for rugby below the top professional club scene and above it internationally.
That's the reality the NH Unions and that means their members and the majority of rugby fans who aren't members have to accept and be willing to act on.

At the moment these millionaires are running top flight club rugby as a hobby in ways that they wouldn't contemplate running them if they were investing in and running actual profit generating enterprises.
A bunch of greedy, selfish, incompetent, irresponsible, self indulgent rich boys playing with their toys. Time the kindergarden teachers exerted some discipline and control before it's too late.


There are instances where some are not just sugar daddies or playing with nrugby toys.


Lorenzetti @ Racing is an example.


Ok, he used Racing and Rugby as a major playing card in his huge 350m Arena real estate business venture but he also provided a remarkable Stadium and his investments in Racing have, unlike some, provided an increased % of french qualified players, I believe that they are now the highest Jiff %.


His wine interests are also combined with Rugby and Hong Kong business events geared to the Asian burgeoning wine interest and is also geared to benefits from the Japan World Cup venue another booming market place.

These are rare examples where rugby is a integrated part of the business enterprise.


Racing budgets, although high, they are not tops...

Altrad has invested 20m in Montpelier and that's not small change even for him, his business does get some good deals for his business ...he is concerned in a w/wide geography and some of the investments are, at the end of the day, relatively cheap advertising opportunities.

Wild a billionaire newcomer has a different motivation … he wants to bring German Rugby much more into the European Rugby fold and his extraordinary level of recent investment is using Stade Francais as his major stalking horse to achieve that.


Both Altrad and Wild have recently been baulked by N Hemp Unions and EPCR to broaden their interests across N Hemp boundaries.

Boudjellal @ Toulon is a different kettle of fish ..he is relatively poor and relies now on Rugby as his major income. He has taken a different route via his very successful relationship with local Government where the Toulon Rugby is considered a valuable asset.

Marti at Bordeaux has made a success of the bottom line since he brought them into the Top14. That is up until this Season where they lost money. They too have considerable obvious relationships within the wine industry and have Hong Kong related investments.

Lyon are the new growth in investment Rugby and are doing very well and growing considerably in a footy area stronghold.

Interestingly and positively comparatively poor in financial terms, teams are doing well and competitive … La Rochelle are a success story financially and support wise but have hiccupped out of the Top 6 this Season. Pau are doing well and growing and have some support from Total. Castres won the Championship and beat the big teams in the Championship this Season.

Toulouse have finally realised that they cannot continue with an 'amateur' profile and have significantly changed into a more Pro environment with some success this Season.

As reported LNR and FFR have agreed a new Convention which is designed to better integrate Club and National rugby

So generalising is unwise without examining further.

Saracens is a strange one, a SA consortium invested huge money (some say pre-empting SA Rugby move to N Hemp) but they are now selling out.


Aviva Club v Country instances have been highlighted above and Wasps look a potential big business failure etc
--------------------------------------------

I would also add that consistent with my comments in above posts that the oft interpreted franglais Club Rugby cause of world wide rugby disruption and unrest whether true or not has to be respected and treated otherwise God knows …


and … Unions are not without considerable blame … the Club Governance win in the EPCR win was the fault of those that put too much faith in the World Rugby organisation that is more toothless than many don't recognise. Country law etc will always baulk them.

World Rugby is a clique and one of pretence with regard to an objective to grow and protect the game, it is often just a defensive 'head in the sand' privileged upper echelon Union consortium.

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Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:40 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Tony Panties wrote:
....So generalising is unwise without examining further....
Well generalizing is, well generalizing. Personally I think if a handful of millionaires who are assets to rugby are thrown out with the bathwater so be it.

I would also add that consistent with my comments in above posts that the oft interpreted franglais Club Rugby cause of world wide rugby disruption and unrest whether true or not has to be respected and treated otherwise God knows …If you don't grasp the bull by the horns God and everyone else knows what the future of the chinashop will be. :lol:

and … Unions are not without considerable blame …Exactly. As you say a clique whose vision for world rugby is essentially - let's keep in in the clique. Not as bad as the cricket but not far behind. .


Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:20 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Figaro wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Wales move up to fifth in the world: https://www.worldrugby.org/news/340112

For all the fuss made about the Jaguares, keep in mind that Argentina have only won SIX matches since the World Cup, which is by far the worst record of any Tier One nation apart from Italy. Argentina should be respected, but Wales should certainly not bow down to them and be frightened of them.


Because Argentina mainly play against sides which are better than they are, they lose a high proportion of their games, which also depresses their world ranking. So looking purely at those sorts of statistics can lead you to underestimate them. Italy suffer for the same reason - they've been consistently ranked lower than Georgia* and Fiji in the last couple of years and are even lower than Tonga at the moment, but are realistically better than those sides and would be favourites if they played one another tomorrow. I do think Argentina will definitely be favourites against us; that said I don't think we necessarily need to fear them and they are certainly beatable.

(Georgia are actually an example of the opposite in that they benefit somewhat from mainly playing weaker sides like Russia, Spain etc., which inflates their ranking).


I know what you are saying, but since the World Cup neither Argentina nor Italy have done any better against the British Isles teams than the traditionally stronger SANZAR teams. (Don't forget that Argentina ended Wales' losing streak two years ago - a week after Australia thrashed us, moreover).

As for World Rugby and the unions, I agree with Tel that they are self-serving cliques and ought to do a lot more to grow the game and protect and invest in emerging and more minor rugby nations. Particular issues include the grossly-abused residency rules, which have wrecked the Pacific islands in particular and might do the same to South Africa in the future too; the lack of promotion and relegation in the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship; the still relatively small number of matches between Tier One nations and the rest. (Ffs, why couldn't Wales have played against the USA instead of South Africa in Washington last Saturday?)


Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:40 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
N.B. Figaro: Japan are also ranked higher than Italy, and this Summer the latter tour the former. It'll be interesting to see how both teams get on.


Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:49 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Also, just to clarify, I meant to say that neither Argentina nor Italy have done any better against the British Isles teams than against the traditionally stronger SANZAR teams since the World Cup.


Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:58 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
,,


Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:28 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
On the BBC site, apart from insisting that the Lions is more important than anything else for rugby in the British Isles, :roll: Gareth Davies explains the South Africa fixture.

"It is not about cash. It was about looking at the American market, blooding youngsters in an environment that will be similar to next year's World Cup.
"If you asked Tomos Williams, Tom Prydie or even George North how important the last game was, they will tell you.
"They enjoyed that totally different experience. We have to think a little bit outside of Offa's Dyke."

I've not seen an explanation by GD or the WRU as to why all that could not have been achieved by arranging that three fixtures fall inside the window which is something French, Scottish. Irish and English unions were capable of organizing. Perhaps he and the WRU weren't thinking even "a little bit outside Offa's Dyke".


Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:40 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
najbritcol wrote:
Figaro wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Wales move up to fifth in the world: https://www.worldrugby.org/news/340112

For all the fuss made about the Jaguares, keep in mind that Argentina have only won SIX matches since the World Cup, which is by far the worst record of any Tier One nation apart from Italy. Argentina should be respected, but Wales should certainly not bow down to them and be frightened of them.


Because Argentina mainly play against sides which are better than they are, they lose a high proportion of their games, which also depresses their world ranking. So looking purely at those sorts of statistics can lead you to underestimate them. Italy suffer for the same reason - they've been consistently ranked lower than Georgia* and Fiji in the last couple of years and are even lower than Tonga at the moment, but are realistically better than those sides and would be favourites if they played one another tomorrow. I do think Argentina will definitely be favourites against us; that said I don't think we necessarily need to fear them and they are certainly beatable.

(Georgia are actually an example of the opposite in that they benefit somewhat from mainly playing weaker sides like Russia, Spain etc., which inflates their ranking).


I know what you are saying, but since the World Cup neither Argentina nor Italy have done any better against the British Isles teams than the traditionally stronger SANZAR teams. (Don't forget that Argentina ended Wales' losing streak two years ago - a week after Australia thrashed us, moreover).

As for World Rugby and the unions, I agree with Tel that they are self-serving cliques and ought to do a lot more to grow the game and protect and invest in emerging and more minor rugby nations. Particular issues include the grossly-abused residency rules, which have wrecked the Pacific islands in particular and might do the same to South Africa in the future too; the lack of promotion and relegation in the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship; the still relatively small number of matches between Tier One nations and the rest. (Ffs, why couldn't Wales have played against the USA instead of South Africa in Washington last Saturday?)


So what are those " grossly-abused" residency rules, and how have they wrecked Pacific Island rugby ?


Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:43 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
najbritcol wrote:
Figaro wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Wales move up to fifth in the world: https://www.worldrugby.org/news/340112

For all the fuss made about the Jaguares, keep in mind that Argentina have only won SIX matches since the World Cup, which is by far the worst record of any Tier One nation apart from Italy. Argentina should be respected, but Wales should certainly not bow down to them and be frightened of them.


Because Argentina mainly play against sides which are better than they are, they lose a high proportion of their games, which also depresses their world ranking. So looking purely at those sorts of statistics can lead you to underestimate them. Italy suffer for the same reason - they've been consistently ranked lower than Georgia* and Fiji in the last couple of years and are even lower than Tonga at the moment, but are realistically better than those sides and would be favourites if they played one another tomorrow. I do think Argentina will definitely be favourites against us; that said I don't think we necessarily need to fear them and they are certainly beatable.

(Georgia are actually an example of the opposite in that they benefit somewhat from mainly playing weaker sides like Russia, Spain etc., which inflates their ranking).


I know what you are saying, but since the World Cup neither Argentina nor Italy have done any better against the British Isles teams than the traditionally stronger SANZAR teams. (Don't forget that Argentina ended Wales' losing streak two years ago - a week after Australia thrashed us, moreover).

As for World Rugby and the unions, I agree with Tel that they are self-serving cliques and ought to do a lot more to grow the game and protect and invest in emerging and more minor rugby nations. Particular issues include the grossly-abused residency rules, which have wrecked the Pacific islands in particular and might do the same to South Africa in the future too; the lack of promotion and relegation in the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship; the still relatively small number of matches between Tier One nations and the rest. (Ffs, why couldn't Wales have played against the USA instead of South Africa in Washington last Saturday?)


So what are those " grossly-abused" residency rules, and how have they wrecked Pacific Island rugby ?


Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:43 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
najbritcol wrote:
Figaro wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Wales move up to fifth in the world: https://www.worldrugby.org/news/340112

For all the fuss made about the Jaguares, keep in mind that Argentina have only won SIX matches since the World Cup, which is by far the worst record of any Tier One nation apart from Italy. Argentina should be respected, but Wales should certainly not bow down to them and be frightened of them.


Because Argentina mainly play against sides which are better than they are, they lose a high proportion of their games, which also depresses their world ranking. So looking purely at those sorts of statistics can lead you to underestimate them. Italy suffer for the same reason - they've been consistently ranked lower than Georgia* and Fiji in the last couple of years and are even lower than Tonga at the moment, but are realistically better than those sides and would be favourites if they played one another tomorrow. I do think Argentina will definitely be favourites against us; that said I don't think we necessarily need to fear them and they are certainly beatable.

(Georgia are actually an example of the opposite in that they benefit somewhat from mainly playing weaker sides like Russia, Spain etc., which inflates their ranking).


I know what you are saying, but since the World Cup neither Argentina nor Italy have done any better against the British Isles teams than the traditionally stronger SANZAR teams. (Don't forget that Argentina ended Wales' losing streak two years ago - a week after Australia thrashed us, moreover).

As for World Rugby and the unions, I agree with Tel that they are self-serving cliques and ought to do a lot more to grow the game and protect and invest in emerging and more minor rugby nations. Particular issues include the grossly-abused residency rules, which have wrecked the Pacific islands in particular and might do the same to South Africa in the future too; the lack of promotion and relegation in the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship; the still relatively small number of matches between Tier One nations and the rest. (Ffs, why couldn't Wales have played against the USA instead of South Africa in Washington last Saturday?)


So what are those " grossly-abused" residency rules, and how have they wrecked Pacific Island rugby ?


Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:43 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
justice that got you so much you had to say 3 times.

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Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:06 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
The residency/eligibility rules probably help more emerging nations than they harm them. Sure, the PIs lose some players to T1, but the ability to strengthen their squads with some strategic foreigners has been crucial to teams like Italy and Japan becoming / remaining competitive. At the lower level, countries like Spain and Germany rely quite heavily on naturalised and ancestry players.


Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:06 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
najbritcol wrote:
Figaro wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Wales move up to fifth in the world: https://www.worldrugby.org/news/340112

For all the fuss made about the Jaguares, keep in mind that Argentina have only won SIX matches since the World Cup, which is by far the worst record of any Tier One nation apart from Italy. Argentina should be respected, but Wales should certainly not bow down to them and be frightened of them.


Because Argentina mainly play against sides which are better than they are, they lose a high proportion of their games, which also depresses their world ranking. So looking purely at those sorts of statistics can lead you to underestimate them. Italy suffer for the same reason - they've been consistently ranked lower than Georgia* and Fiji in the last couple of years and are even lower than Tonga at the moment, but are realistically better than those sides and would be favourites if they played one another tomorrow. I do think Argentina will definitely be favourites against us; that said I don't think we necessarily need to fear them and they are certainly beatable.

(Georgia are actually an example of the opposite in that they benefit somewhat from mainly playing weaker sides like Russia, Spain etc., which inflates their ranking).


I know what you are saying, but since the World Cup neither Argentina nor Italy have done any better against the British Isles teams than the traditionally stronger SANZAR teams. (Don't forget that Argentina ended Wales' losing streak two years ago - a week after Australia thrashed us, moreover).

As for World Rugby and the unions, I agree with Tel that they are self-serving cliques and ought to do a lot more to grow the game and protect and invest in emerging and more minor rugby nations. Particular issues include the grossly-abused residency rules, which have wrecked the Pacific islands in particular and might do the same to South Africa in the future too; the lack of promotion and relegation in the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship; the still relatively small number of matches between Tier One nations and the rest. (Ffs, why couldn't Wales have played against the USA instead of South Africa in Washington last Saturday?)


Yes that is my general opinion but I can see the other side of opportunities presented to PI Countries when they ply their trade and have opportunities 'abroad'

My grouse is that World Rugby preserve the interests of the more elite Union hierarchy clique and that people misread the real extent of their influence.

They are protective rather than assertive and in the major issue of Club v Country potential dangers they are 'head in the sand' They don't seem to be open to negotiation and confrontaion although, as already said, their powers are not that extensive.

The opportunity is there with the world wide timetable aspects, as previously mentioned more like 'blocks' etc, and some relaxation when major events like Lions Tours and World Cups put further strain on the timetables.

By absence they are just, imo, encouraging more discontent with the Club orented franglais instead of looking for more world wide respect and harmony.

The alternatives could be extreme.

Just clarifying my position and particularly with regard too PI countries which are 'special cases'

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Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:14 pm
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