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Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018) 
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Fr: Evans, Owens, Lee, Francis and Brown.
SR. Jones, Ball, Charteris
BR: Faletau, Warburton, Griffiths, Tipuric, Shingler, Navidi
SH: Davies, Webb
FH: Priestland, Williams, Biggar
CE: Davies, Williams
W: Adams.
FB:Halfpenny, Williams.

By my reckoning 24 players would have either started over yesterday's players or been in contention in some positions. That is quite a lot of players to be injured or rested and still expect 50 point tonkings etc.


Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:18 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Summer tours are becoming ridiculous other than for a formally declared development objective?

France will play NZ next weekend with a team that has 21 prime candidates excepted for various reasons.

NZ will field a prime squad.

God only knows France would get very well beaten anyway but now it is just a façade for revenue and little else.

An insult to the NZ supporters and of no purpose other than humiliation for >France.


Given the FFR/LNR drive at comprehensive change of organisation and harmony between Club and National objectives (reported in Fra section) there's already talk of eliminating Summer/Off Season tours and that would make a lot of sense but would affect significant revenue aspects especially for the S Hemp venues.

Schedules are ridiculous and the games have questionable purpose, cue last night's affair which was awful from most points of view.

Woirld Rugby continues to drag their heels on the w/wide timetable issue ...

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Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:53 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Disappointed with Anscombe last night.

He seems to have all the skills required but he did not control or take the game by the scruff of the neck. Why can't we find an outside half without major flaws!


Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
dhook wrote:
Disappointed with Anscombe last night.

He seems to have all the skills required but he did not control or take the game by the scruff of the neck. Why can't we find an outside half without major flaws!


And always goes one stride too far, without passing that is.

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Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:44 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Tony Panties wrote:
Summer tours are becoming ridiculous other than for a formally declared development objective?

France will play NZ next weekend with a team that has 21 prime candidates excepted for various reasons.

NZ will field a prime squad.

God only knows France would get very well beaten anyway but now it is just a façade for revenue and little else.

An insult to the NZ supporters and of no purpose other than humiliation for >France.


Given the FFR/LNR drive at comprehensive change of organisation and harmony between Club and National objectives (reported in Fra section) there's already talk of eliminating Summer/Off Season tours and that would make a lot of sense but would affect significant revenue aspects especially for the S Hemp venues.

Schedules are ridiculous and the games have questionable purpose, cue last night's affair which was awful from most points of view.

Woirld Rugby continues to drag their heels on the w/wide timetable issue ...


The idea is surely that they can market an A Team as the first team. Yesterday, except for maybe George North was our A Team. Many of us tuned in and fans turned up. If this was an A Team in name it would have had the coverage. Also I believe that both SA and Wales played marginally better than if this was an actual A Team in name. The factors outlined here surely add to the prestige. The same applies to the fourth Autumn International.

I didn't enjoy last night but I don't somehow feel robbed knowing that this wasn't good quality. I prefer the pretence that this was a proper Wales game at a low quality rather than a Wales A game.


Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
soap wrote:
dhook wrote:
Disappointed with Anscombe last night.

He seems to have all the skills required but he did not control or take the game by the scruff of the neck. Why can't we find an outside half without major flaws!


And always goes one stride too far, without passing that is.


Yep, Saturday was his big chance to stake his claim and he was poor.
And well as Tomos Williams played I'd expect to see Gareth Davies & Patchell start against Arg.

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:00 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Tony Panties wrote:
Summer tours are becoming ridiculous other than for a formally declared development objective?

France will play NZ next weekend with a team that has 21 prime candidates excepted for various reasons.

NZ will field a prime squad.

God only knows France would get very well beaten anyway but now it is just a façade for revenue and little else.

An insult to the NZ supporters and of no purpose other than humiliation for >France.


Given the FFR/LNR drive at comprehensive change of organisation and harmony between Club and National objectives (reported in Fra section) there's already talk of eliminating Summer/Off Season tours and that would make a lot of sense but would affect significant revenue aspects especially for the S Hemp venues.

Schedules are ridiculous and the games have questionable purpose, cue last night's affair which was awful from most points of view.

Woirld Rugby continues to drag their heels on the w/wide timetable issue ...

NZ have quite a few players out, nothing like the NH sides, but still, enough to keep most kiwis on their toes.

It seems as though the NH clubs want to cull off season tours, shame that. :( Kill test matches to help make them more successful. I can see where they are coming from, I just hope they fail miserably, bloody selfish(business is business) and like corporations, couldn’t give a shit about the game. Tel, I mentioned in the French section a while back, France play 1 more game at this time then they did 10 years ago, 1 game. Is cancelling 3 games that involve probably 30 players really going to even put a small dent into the amount of games players are put through? Why not have rules about hours played in the club game? Or heaven forbid, rest players? The answer seems painfully easy, but big money clubs don’t care about anything but the bottom line, which means they won’t budge.

I love test match rugby, maybe that’s because I’m a kiwi. :dontknow: I wonder if NZs domination has in some way contributed to this “club rugby>test rugby” stuff.

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:40 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
loosechange wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Summer tours are becoming ridiculous other than for a formally declared development objective?

France will play NZ next weekend with a team that has 21 prime candidates excepted for various reasons.

NZ will field a prime squad.

God only knows France would get very well beaten anyway but now it is just a façade for revenue and little else.

An insult to the NZ supporters and of no purpose other than humiliation for >France.


Given the FFR/LNR drive at comprehensive change of organisation and harmony between Club and National objectives (reported in Fra section) there's already talk of eliminating Summer/Off Season tours and that would make a lot of sense but would affect significant revenue aspects especially for the S Hemp venues.

Schedules are ridiculous and the games have questionable purpose, cue last night's affair which was awful from most points of view.

Woirld Rugby continues to drag their heels on the w/wide timetable issue ...

NZ have quite a few players out, nothing like the NH sides, but still, enough to keep most kiwis on their toes.

It seems as though the NH clubs want to cull off season tours, shame that. :( Kill test matches to help make them more successful. I can see where they are coming from, I just hope they fail miserably, bloody selfish(business is business) and like corporations, couldn’t give a shit about the game. Tel, I mentioned in the French section a while back, France play 1 more game at this time then they did 10 years ago, 1 game. Is cancelling 3 games that involve probably 30 players really going to even put a small dent into the amount of games players are put through? Why not have rules about hours played in the club game? Or heaven forbid, rest players? The answer seems painfully easy, but big money clubs don’t care about anything but the bottom line, which means they won’t budge.

I love test match rugby, maybe that’s because I’m a kiwi. :dontknow: I wonder if NZs domination has in some way contributed to this “club rugby>test rugby” stuff.


Me too, have always loved test rugby which for me always has and will be the pinnacle of the game.
And as for NZ dominance, what's changed? When I was growing up it was same except back then it was NZ / SA dominance (except for the 1971 & 1974 Lions, which was because of an exceptional group of British & Irish players coming together for a few years). And then England for about a decade up to 2003 managed to challenge that dominance.
The growing power and influence of club rugby in France & England looks to me to be mostly about money and egos and they don't give a *fupp* about anything other than themselves.

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:57 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Wales move up to fifth in the world: https://www.worldrugby.org/news/340112

For all the fuss made about the Jaguares, keep in mind that Argentina have only won SIX matches since the World Cup, which is by far the worst record of any Tier One nation apart from Italy. Argentina should be respected, but Wales should certainly not bow down to them and be frightened of them.


Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:17 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Old Second Row wrote:
loosechange wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Summer tours are becoming ridiculous other than for a formally declared development objective?

France will play NZ next weekend with a team that has 21 prime candidates excepted for various reasons.

NZ will field a prime squad.

God only knows France would get very well beaten anyway but now it is just a façade for revenue and little else.

An insult to the NZ supporters and of no purpose other than humiliation for >France.


Given the FFR/LNR drive at comprehensive change of organisation and harmony between Club and National objectives (reported in Fra section) there's already talk of eliminating Summer/Off Season tours and that would make a lot of sense but would affect significant revenue aspects especially for the S Hemp venues.

Schedules are ridiculous and the games have questionable purpose, cue last night's affair which was awful from most points of view.

Woirld Rugby continues to drag their heels on the w/wide timetable issue ...

NZ have quite a few players out, nothing like the NH sides, but still, enough to keep most kiwis on their toes.

It seems as though the NH clubs want to cull off season tours, shame that. :( Kill test matches to help make them more successful. I can see where they are coming from, I just hope they fail miserably, bloody selfish(business is business) and like corporations, couldn’t give a shit about the game. Tel, I mentioned in the French section a while back, France play 1 more game at this time then they did 10 years ago, 1 game. Is cancelling 3 games that involve probably 30 players really going to even put a small dent into the amount of games players are put through? Why not have rules about hours played in the club game? Or heaven forbid, rest players? The answer seems painfully easy, but big money clubs don’t care about anything but the bottom line, which means they won’t budge.

I love test match rugby, maybe that’s because I’m a kiwi. :dontknow: I wonder if NZs domination has in some way contributed to this “club rugby>test rugby” stuff.


Me too, have always loved test rugby which for me always has and will be the pinnacle of the game.
And as for NZ dominance, what's changed? When I was growing up it was same except back then it was NZ / SA dominance (except for the 1971 & 1974 Lions, which was because of an exceptional group of British & Irish players coming together for a few years). And then England for about a decade up to 2003 managed to challenge that dominance.
The growing power and influence of club rugby in France & England looks to me to be mostly about money and egos and they don't give a *fupp* about anything other than themselves.


SecRow/Loosie;

Your criticisms contradict the recent Agreement which is primarily designed to improve French rugby and has significant concessions form the Clubs, as reported in the french section.

The one failure, as noted, is to shorten the Club Season.

Truly this is a significant radical attempt to reconcile LNR/FFR imbalance and to better improve the total structure.

The other important aspect is the World Rugby abject failure to try and reconcile the haphazard World Timetable. Promised 11 ...yes ELEVEN.. years ago.


I don't hear you two mentioning that whilst people have been calling for sensible block

schedules etc for ages.

Pro Rugby does also depend on investment and subsidy. Remember revenue requirements when criticising impacted teams etc ...can't have the penny and the bun.

I'd say an 'ello 'ello Good Moaning but it's the wrong time of day ;)

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:44 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Tel, you said that the French want to scrap the summer tours, that benefits no one except a few clubs in the NH. As I said, 1 extra game. Why scrap summer tours? You said it makes sense to do it, I firmly believe it makes no sense at all, unless you’re a NH club team supporter who doesn’t care about test rugby. :scratch:

Simple question, are you for the stopping of summer tours completely?

Imho, the frogs have gotten so bad at the test game, and so good at the business game, they’re wanting to go down the football route where tests mean nothing outside of WCs. These concessions you speak of mean bugger all if the club season isn’t shortened, which is the logical answer for most rugby fans. If they don’t want to shorten the season, what else do they offer?

A worldwide timetable has been on the cards for years, but do you really think it’s going to happen? I don’t. Too many unions, too many money men. It’s a pipe dream until it happens, if it happens, so until then, I reckon we shouldn’t touch the test games and unions should better police the clubs and player welfare. Even if there was a WW Timetable, I just can’t see the money men cutting back on what they’re already doing so it’ll be more of the same no matter what.

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Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:52 pm
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
loosechange wrote:
Tel, you said that the French want to scrap the summer tours, that benefits no one except a few clubs in the NH. As I said, 1 extra game. Why scrap summer tours? You said it makes sense to do it, I firmly believe it makes no sense at all, unless you’re a NH club team supporter who doesn’t care about test rugby. :scratch:

Simple question, are you for the stopping of summer tours completely?

Imho, the frogs have gotten so bad at the test game, and so good at the business game, they’re wanting to go down the football route where tests mean nothing outside of WCs. These concessions you speak of mean bugger all if the club season isn’t shortened, which is the logical answer for most rugby fans. If they don’t want to shorten the season, what else do they offer?

A worldwide timetable has been on the cards for years, but do you really think it’s going to happen? I don’t. Too many unions, too many money men. It’s a pipe dream until it happens, if it happens, so until then, I reckon we shouldn’t touch the test games and unions should better police the clubs and player welfare. Even if there was a WW Timetable, I just can’t see the money men cutting back on what they’re already doing so it’ll be more of the same no matter what.


Loosie

Some french are suggesting in the circumstances that Summer Tours should be scrapped or turned down in terms of competition and should be used more on the development basis and using more a France B type aspect(already newly set up)

Personally, I would support more the second option. It would also support more exposure to developing countries.

I dont think that people in general realise the extent of the support and passion that is in the french Club rugby. I posted the French Top14 final on this Forum to try and describe that. It is immense ...the following, support levels and media reporting!

One cannot and should not ignore that.


The sincere attempt to rectify the poor french National performance is sincere but when push comes to shove one cannot fly in the face of the Club following and the overall timetable aspects!

It isn't only France, the similar war has broken out again in Eng, this article ( in french but I will include salient points) highlights Club v Country on a similar basis. Indeed, France with their new Convention are now more advanced in Union/Club rugby than the English in terms of formal harmony to try and balance Club/Country aspects. The article describes a prominent Club Exec, Craig, who is part of the Club PRL executive and the Euro executive too....citing the impossible circumstances of injuries. Currently 15 selection absences. Craig is described in the article as the Donald Trump of Rugby.

Eng injury levels are described and are reaching unmanageable proportions

Apologies... the full article is not there it is subscriber only.

https://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Article/Cr ... ion/907639


NZ isn't out of the same wood either even with their lesser extensive schedule...7 missing for french first test according to this french article (the injuries can be easily discerned from the article.

France have 21 players affected selection wise for the first test.

Is that fair to french/AB supporters?

https://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites ... aux/907441

Now we come to the shit hits the fan level and addresses your point of footy type consequences :

Like it or like it not the clout is with the franglais and they could well lead the footy route. I am happy that France is sensibly halting the likelihood but the Euro Club rugby aspect and the Club Governance is a big threat!

This leads nicely to another point you raise Loosie, the w/wide timetable and the World Rugby lethargy concerning it ...

World Rugby is shitting itself from the threat of a potentially burgeoning Club Rugby where there is a desire fir a more Conference related feed into a broader international aspect. A w/wide timetable would be beneficial to that aspect. Indeed a refined Club conference set up may well lighten schedules by a more hierarchical presence? World Rugby is aware of that and imo is part of their lethargy.

The SA position is another interesting feed to this especially if they migrate more to a N Hemp presence?

I don't agree with you that w/wide timetable is "pie in the sky" ...it is very tenuous under today's circumstances but could become the vehicule to better rationalise Club/Country conflict and head off the potential footy route which would diminish National presence.

Even in today's circumstances there is considerable room for improvement ...block schedules seem good sense to me rather than the haphazard Tests/league championships/Euro competitions/6 Nations/Super Rugby not to mention impossible World Cup timetable intervention etc etc and not to mention sledgehammered International tests which only serve as revenue opportunities and further fly in the face of player welfare and the like.

Of course, world wide clocks and distances can be prohibitive but a more hierarchical organisation of competitions can address that.

Loosie I've tried to address your points and widen the argument and introduce some reality in terms of the extent of the Club game and inevitably the financial unbalanced aspects.

I apologise that I have not had the time, energy and willpower at this time in the morning to broach better development of less developed Rugby Nations and other aspects. Player Welfare and extent and incidence of injuries are very worrying and the contractual aspects of pkayers another concern. Billionaire presence is also affecting skew in privilege although well dine poor relation Castres in winning the Top14 Championship!

I don't like what I see and the potential adverse consequences but the current circumstances are potentially explosive. The realities of a Sport in Pro infancy and with different competitive ulterior motives does need total objective action to successfully rationalise it.

Best

Tel

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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
Tel, I appreciate the response, and I really appreciate that you didn’t sound like my father! :D

I totally understand that French club rugby is huge, and I applaud them for getting it to that stage, they must be doing something right. :thumbright: What I’m not to happy about is these clubs trying to change the face of test rugby because test rugby isn’t important in their business venture(again, totally understand their stance as they are just trying to put food on their table). This is the reason why the French fans will never see eye to eye with the rest of the world(or the fans who don’t have a team with that kind of money behind it).

I’m totally against making it development tours, just devalues the test game and test caps imho, and by the spounds of the Wales vs SA game, development games could do more harm than good.

Regarding the NZ v France tests. We do everything we can to get our strongest team onto the field, injuries will happen. France don’t have everyone to select from because of the club game, surely they should have everyone to select from, and to do this the club season needs to be changed. If they aren’t interested in changing now then I can’t ever see them being keen.

Again you bring up test rugby like it’s some new sledgehammered thing? The club schedule is the new kid on the block, and if France can’t come up with a decent test team then I think they need to pull finger and make sure it doesn’t happen again. All tests are revenue building, always have been, but they are also massively important for rugby fans. They don’t fly in the face of player welfare, club teams who refuse to rest players do that. A test match requires a squad to choose from, say 30 players. A club weekend requires what, 14 squads of 30 players. Test rugby doesn’t have much of a bearing on total player welfare, especially if its seen as the pinnacle and players are rested accordingly.

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Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:26 am
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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
loosechange wrote:
Tel, I appreciate the response, and I really appreciate that you didn’t sound like my father! :D

I totally understand that French club rugby is huge, and I applaud them for getting it to that stage, they must be doing something right. :thumbright: What I’m not to happy about is these clubs trying to change the face of test rugby because test rugby isn’t important in their business venture(again, totally understand their stance as they are just trying to put food on their table). This is the reason why the French fans will never see eye to eye with the rest of the world(or the fans who don’t have a team with that kind of money behind it).

I’m totally against making it development tours, just devalues the test game and test caps imho, and by the spounds of the Wales vs SA game, development games could do more harm than good.

Regarding the NZ v France tests. We do everything we can to get our strongest team onto the field, injuries will happen. France don’t have everyone to select from because of the club game, surely they should have everyone to select from, and to do this the club season needs to be changed. If they aren’t interested in changing now then I can’t ever see them being keen.

Again you bring up test rugby like it’s some new sledgehammered thing? The club schedule is the new kid on the block, and if France can’t come up with a decent test team then I think they need to pull finger and make sure it doesn’t happen again. All tests are revenue building, always have been, but they are also massively important for rugby fans. They don’t fly in the face of player welfare, club teams who refuse to rest players do that. A test match requires a squad to choose from, say 30 players. A club weekend requires what, 14 squads of 30 players. Test rugby doesn’t have much of a bearing on total player welfare, especially if its seen as the pinnacle and players are rested accordingly.


Now look her son, .... ;) :D ..apologies....

You are majoring on France and ignoring Eng and my section on that and comment on relative Club power. Eng is the most powerful in a combined Union and Club point of view.

I totally respect the need for full on tests but it's pointless pretending that in some instances they are not viable and degrade that level.

Revenue is imbalanced, we all know that and recognise the issue but when push comes to shove locally it's understandable that there are complaints at further overload. The forced Tuesday 'test' NZ France making 3 games in 8 days was a farcical example. French rugby was in full flight and NZ were relatively comfortable in a tour circumstance!


You seem to have ignored ny comments on w/wide timetable and cross referencing your comments?

Loosie, our debate is inevitably becoming entrenched?

I do feel that you don't respect my sincere concern on the state of World Rugby (not the organisation) and that my comment relating to Club Rugby is just a realistic look at the circumstance, influence and potential effect on futures.

Something has to give, the reason I am relatively happy about the french circumstance because it does seem to be a real attempt at reconciliation and an objective to create a sensible integrated pyramid with shared interest and a strategic perspective of common National and Club futures.


I look for a similar rational and radical reviews and actions on the total front.

I lack confidence in World Rugby organisation which is just a consortium of Unions ring fencing their parochial interests and also playing token regard to developing the Sport.

PS the other aspects mentioned but not treated e.g Player Welfare and injuries are equally important but, imo, even lesser treated ? Potentially injury levels could cause revision that could make Rugby as we now know it unrecognisable.

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Post Re: Wales v South Africa (Sat 02.06.2018)
^^^^^^^^^

Forgot to say that I am awaiting the next NZRFU annual report which will triumphantly announce a significant profit
on the back of the Lions tour with the reverberations of that tour felt back at the home schedules and player aspects.

and on that subject and directly related to the debate above and the growing discontent in the English Club ranks, this exhibits extent of potential conflict which is, imo, potentially dangerous and could lead to open conflict.

There's also a World Cup on the horizon with no relief on home schedules and release obligations.

Here's an article from yesterday :

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/44358184

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