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This is taking the pi55 
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
Troron wrote:
Not a fan of selecting him, the fact is the English premiership DOES have good flankers and players who operated well at the breakdown. The issue the that successive English coaches have refused to select them which has given the impression that we have no home grown talent up to the task. I'd be disappointed if Jones just plonks in Shields for our tour of SA with Robshaw or Haskell. I have a bad feeling Jones is not going to use the SA tour to give English players a chance and is going to continue to stick with the same group and same tactics. The fact it's taken coming 5th for him to even acknowledge there was a problem is kinda worrying when the signs have been there for over a year.

As for this situation, NZ don't really have a leg to stand on. WR rules explicitly say that if a player is eligible to play for a country then the clubs are not allowed to block him from being selected to play for them during the designated international windows. Doesn't matter what is in his contract, the contract is in breach of WR rules. The only reason this hasn't been an issue before is because a player based in NZ has not be called up to play for another international team whilst still being based in NZ. If it goes to court then WR will simply ask why they mandate all NZ club players sign a clause that directly contradicts WR rules on releasing players for internationals. I think if push comes to shove, WR will just declare that clause is null and void.


What flankers would you pick?


6 - Willis, Armand, Wilson, Ewers, Underhill
7 - Curry x2, Kvesic

I suspect there is a 7 I'm missing that will come back to me some time. The likes of Underhill could be a 7 but that would not address our breakdown issues, it would only work if the tactics change so we actually get enough people to the breakdown and raw physicality will be good enough. On a completely unrelated note, just read Mako Vunipola is only 27... Bloody hell he looks the later half of 30.


I mean this with the greatest respect. Please take this question without agenda... But if the England managers haven't noticed this, how come you have?


Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:48 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Cymru am byth wrote:

I mean this with the greatest respect. Please take this question without agenda... But if the England managers haven't noticed this, how come you have?


It isn't just me, it's a pretty common frustration among a lot of English fans. I mean English clubs don't routinely get bossed at the breakdown like England do and some of the best clubs at the breakdown include flankers from the list I gave. The fact is the number of flankers we have given any decent amount of game time in the last few years is pitiful. Robshaw has been guaranteed for the last 5 years or so leaving 1 flanker spot, with Haskell filling that for maybe 2 or 3 years. Since then we have thrown the odd cap here or there but have not gone for any prolonged period with any other flankers and given them a chance to stake their claim.

The young ones in particular have also not been beaten at U20 level and at their clubs have shown they can compete with players much more experienced than them. It's a culture thing within the English rugby setup. We don't like flair players and we don't like true opensides. Either way though, the South Africa tour should be to unearth new talent to bolster the squad. If Jones uses it to just put out the same team and same tactics that failed in the 6N then he will have wasted yet another year in which he has done nothing to solve our problems. Getting Shields in is a quick fix and a "safe" option.

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Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:31 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
I always go with what is in the heart. If a player feels he is english then he is english ..let them have him, poor sod.


Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:03 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
I always go with what is in the heart. If a player feels he is english then he is english ..let them have him, poor sod.


I bet he can't believe his luck. All that dosh coming his way and fair play to England for realising he's qualified. win win

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Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:07 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
simondavis wrote:
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
I always go with what is in the heart. If a player feels he is english then he is english ..let them have him, poor sod.


I bet he can't believe his luck. All that dosh coming his way and fair play to England for realising he's qualified. win win

It's a win win for England but it's a lose lose for any nation who wants to invest in youth as the future and yes I'm well aware of Anscome I just wouldn't have picked him in the first place

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Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:15 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Big And Dull wrote:
simondavis wrote:
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
I always go with what is in the heart. If a player feels he is english then he is english ..let them have him, poor sod.


I bet he can't believe his luck. All that dosh coming his way and fair play to England for realising he's qualified. win win

It's a win win for England but it's a lose lose for any nation who wants to invest in youth as the future and yes I'm well aware of Anscome I just wouldn't have picked him in the first place


I'm not worried about that. Ireland are doing ok on the youth front! We seem to be slowly getting there. I do think it's comical whats going on with England though, I mean Eddie was saying in the 6 nations that they didn't have the fitness to play unstructured footie or whatever it was and now he gets a 7 who does exactly that. He's so full of shite.

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Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:22 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
simondavis wrote:
I'm not worried about that. Ireland are doing ok on the youth front! We seem to be slowly getting there. I do think it's comical whats going on with England though, I mean Eddie was saying in the 6 nations that they didn't have the fitness to play unstructured footie or whatever it was and now he gets a 7 who does exactly that. He's so full of shite.


I found the whole English lack of fitness thing quite baffling. Prior to Jones coming in, I can't think of many times where we visibly faded at the end of games. It's not like Italy where almost like clockwork they would begin to disintegrate after 60 mins. If anything he improved that situation in the first year but has now been making it worse. We still tend to finish stronger in the last 20 but have been so lethargic in the first 60 now.

It smells more like Jones just doesn't want to try to coach that style of play in England because he feels it will go against the "traditional" strength. Problem is our traditional strength has not been something we've been stronger than our opposition at for quite a while. Ireland beat us in pretty much every aspect of trying to play a physical bullying game, as do the French. We can out muscle Wales and Scotland but then don't support it well enough so keep letting our ball get slowed down or turned over.

Jones obviously had an image in his head of how he wants England to play and it's taken coming 5th for him to even contemplate that his tactics just don't work once they have been found out. Ford and Farrell can potentially tear defences apart but they need the forwards to actually be doing their jobs. In the last 6N they were so piss poor at offering any sort of physical threat that Ford-Farrell became pointless, if you aren't creating anything to exploit then being able to pick multiple options serves no purpose. A large chunk of our problems come from awful clear-out technique and poor to non-existent support for lone forwards running at set defences. I guess Jones imagined sending 1 forward at 3 forwards would mean that you have a 2 man advantage, conveniently forgetting the bit about getting the ball away from that 1 forward and out to the rest of the team.

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Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:15 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
simondavis wrote:
I'm not worried about that. Ireland are doing ok on the youth front! We seem to be slowly getting there. I do think it's comical whats going on with England though, I mean Eddie was saying in the 6 nations that they didn't have the fitness to play unstructured footie or whatever it was and now he gets a 7 who does exactly that. He's so full of shite.


I found the whole English lack of fitness thing quite baffling. Prior to Jones coming in, I can't think of many times where we visibly faded at the end of games. It's not like Italy where almost like clockwork they would begin to disintegrate after 60 mins. If anything he improved that situation in the first year but has now been making it worse. We still tend to finish stronger in the last 20 but have been so lethargic in the first 60 now.

It smells more like Jones just doesn't want to try to coach that style of play in England because he feels it will go against the "traditional" strength. Problem is our traditional strength has not been something we've been stronger than our opposition at for quite a while. Ireland beat us in pretty much every aspect of trying to play a physical bullying game, as do the French. We can out muscle Wales and Scotland but then don't support it well enough so keep letting our ball get slowed down or turned over.

Jones obviously had an image in his head of how he wants England to play and it's taken coming 5th for him to even contemplate that his tactics just don't work once they have been found out. Ford and Farrell can potentially tear defences apart but they need the forwards to actually be doing their jobs. In the last 6N they were so piss poor at offering any sort of physical threat that Ford-Farrell became pointless, if you aren't creating anything to exploit then being able to pick multiple options serves no purpose. A large chunk of our problems come from awful clear-out technique and poor to non-existent support for lone forwards running at set defences. I guess Jones imagined sending 1 forward at 3 forwards would mean that you have a 2 man advantage, conveniently forgetting the bit about getting the ball away from that 1 forward and out to the rest of the team.


You seem very negative on Jones. England were unlucky to finish 5th. Other than Ireland and Italy, the table in this year's 6N was difficult to call.


Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:46 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
simondavis wrote:
I'm not worried about that. Ireland are doing ok on the youth front! We seem to be slowly getting there. I do think it's comical whats going on with England though, I mean Eddie was saying in the 6 nations that they didn't have the fitness to play unstructured footie or whatever it was and now he gets a 7 who does exactly that. He's so full of shite.


I found the whole English lack of fitness thing quite baffling. Prior to Jones coming in, I can't think of many times where we visibly faded at the end of games. It's not like Italy where almost like clockwork they would begin to disintegrate after 60 mins. If anything he improved that situation in the first year but has now been making it worse. We still tend to finish stronger in the last 20 but have been so lethargic in the first 60 now.

It smells more like Jones just doesn't want to try to coach that style of play in England because he feels it will go against the "traditional" strength. Problem is our traditional strength has not been something we've been stronger than our opposition at for quite a while. Ireland beat us in pretty much every aspect of trying to play a physical bullying game, as do the French. We can out muscle Wales and Scotland but then don't support it well enough so keep letting our ball get slowed down or turned over.

Jones obviously had an image in his head of how he wants England to play and it's taken coming 5th for him to even contemplate that his tactics just don't work once they have been found out. Ford and Farrell can potentially tear defences apart but they need the forwards to actually be doing their jobs. In the last 6N they were so piss poor at offering any sort of physical threat that Ford-Farrell became pointless, if you aren't creating anything to exploit then being able to pick multiple options serves no purpose. A large chunk of our problems come from awful clear-out technique and poor to non-existent support for lone forwards running at set defences. I guess Jones imagined sending 1 forward at 3 forwards would mean that you have a 2 man advantage, conveniently forgetting the bit about getting the ball away from that 1 forward and out to the rest of the team.


You seem very negative on Jones. England were unlucky to finish 5th. Other than Ireland and Italy, the table in this year's 6N was difficult to call.


Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:46 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Cymru am byth wrote:
You seem very negative on Jones. England were unlucky to finish 5th. Other than Ireland and Italy, the table in this year's 6N was difficult to call.


Not so much just Jones but successive England coaches all doing nothing to address the breakdown issues. Jones did well in his first year, he shook things up and got us playing competing at the breakdown. We weren't really turning over ball but we could slow it down and protect our own possession. We had been humiliated in the world cup by failing to protect the ball. It's frustrating now that since that initial burst, there has been no sign of any further development in England tactically. We may have been unlucky to finish 5th but the fact that every single team exploited exactly the same weakness should show that it's a pretty big and obvious weakness. It then begs the question, if opposition coaches could see it that clearly, why couldn't Jones? If he could, why was nothing done about it, why did he stick with a lock in the back row despite it being shown up in every single game?

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:37 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Cymru am byth wrote:
Troron wrote:
simondavis wrote:
I'm not worried about that. Ireland are doing ok on the youth front! We seem to be slowly getting there. I do think it's comical whats going on with England though, I mean Eddie was saying in the 6 nations that they didn't have the fitness to play unstructured footie or whatever it was and now he gets a 7 who does exactly that. He's so full of shite.


I found the whole English lack of fitness thing quite baffling. Prior to Jones coming in, I can't think of many times where we visibly faded at the end of games. It's not like Italy where almost like clockwork they would begin to disintegrate after 60 mins. If anything he improved that situation in the first year but has now been making it worse. We still tend to finish stronger in the last 20 but have been so lethargic in the first 60 now.

It smells more like Jones just doesn't want to try to coach that style of play in England because he feels it will go against the "traditional" strength. Problem is our traditional strength has not been something we've been stronger than our opposition at for quite a while. Ireland beat us in pretty much every aspect of trying to play a physical bullying game, as do the French. We can out muscle Wales and Scotland but then don't support it well enough so keep letting our ball get slowed down or turned over.

Jones obviously had an image in his head of how he wants England to play and it's taken coming 5th for him to even contemplate that his tactics just don't work once they have been found out. Ford and Farrell can potentially tear defences apart but they need the forwards to actually be doing their jobs. In the last 6N they were so piss poor at offering any sort of physical threat that Ford-Farrell became pointless, if you aren't creating anything to exploit then being able to pick multiple options serves no purpose. A large chunk of our problems come from awful clear-out technique and poor to non-existent support for lone forwards running at set defences. I guess Jones imagined sending 1 forward at 3 forwards would mean that you have a 2 man advantage, conveniently forgetting the bit about getting the ball away from that 1 forward and out to the rest of the team.


You seem very negative on Jones. England were unlucky to finish 5th. Other than Ireland and Italy, the table in this year's 6N was difficult to call.

The English were the worst but one team in the competition, they got lucky in the only win they had other than Italy, they deserved to finish bottom but one.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:35 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
trampie wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
Troron wrote:
simondavis wrote:
I'm not worried about that. Ireland are doing ok on the youth front! We seem to be slowly getting there. I do think it's comical whats going on with England though, I mean Eddie was saying in the 6 nations that they didn't have the fitness to play unstructured footie or whatever it was and now he gets a 7 who does exactly that. He's so full of shite.


I found the whole English lack of fitness thing quite baffling. Prior to Jones coming in, I can't think of many times where we visibly faded at the end of games. It's not like Italy where almost like clockwork they would begin to disintegrate after 60 mins. If anything he improved that situation in the first year but has now been making it worse. We still tend to finish stronger in the last 20 but have been so lethargic in the first 60 now.

It smells more like Jones just doesn't want to try to coach that style of play in England because he feels it will go against the "traditional" strength. Problem is our traditional strength has not been something we've been stronger than our opposition at for quite a while. Ireland beat us in pretty much every aspect of trying to play a physical bullying game, as do the French. We can out muscle Wales and Scotland but then don't support it well enough so keep letting our ball get slowed down or turned over.

Jones obviously had an image in his head of how he wants England to play and it's taken coming 5th for him to even contemplate that his tactics just don't work once they have been found out. Ford and Farrell can potentially tear defences apart but they need the forwards to actually be doing their jobs. In the last 6N they were so piss poor at offering any sort of physical threat that Ford-Farrell became pointless, if you aren't creating anything to exploit then being able to pick multiple options serves no purpose. A large chunk of our problems come from awful clear-out technique and poor to non-existent support for lone forwards running at set defences. I guess Jones imagined sending 1 forward at 3 forwards would mean that you have a 2 man advantage, conveniently forgetting the bit about getting the ball away from that 1 forward and out to the rest of the team.


You seem very negative on Jones. England were unlucky to finish 5th. Other than Ireland and Italy, the table in this year's 6N was difficult to call.

The English were the worst but one team in the competition, they got lucky in the only win they had other than Italy, they deserved to finish bottom but one.


But given who beat who, I don't think anyone can say that teams two 2 to 5 were better than eachother. E.g. we thrashed Scotland who beat England who beat us.


Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:38 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
The scores are on the doors, Wales 15pts, Scotland 13pts, France 11pts and England only 10pts.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:54 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
England scored the 2nd most tries and conceded the 2nd fewest. It was bad for us but but penalties made up a larger portion of the points scored against us than for any other team and the majority of those penalties were at the breakdown...

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:15 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
England were well beaten against Scotland, France and Ireland, with England getting late scores to narrow the gap in the score lines when they were clearly second best. England got lucky in a close game against Wales with the authorities even giving Wales a formal apology, England's bottom but one ranking was merited.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:27 pm
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