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This is taking the pi55 
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Post This is taking the pi55
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... frica-tour

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Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:09 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
He's a fantastic player and would have a hat full of caps had he been born in most other countries. But this can't be right? How do young up and coming back rowers feel when they see this

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Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:12 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
They'll feel that's the standard. And they'll be pissed off. Knee jerk or what to the failings of the English Premiership and Eddie bringing him in. Remember Brett Sinkinson under Graham Henry? I'm not saying he reinvented the 7 but look what we had after and still have. England and Eddie are scraping the same way. That's my take on it.

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Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:43 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Don’t have that much of in issue with it... both patents from England sounds legit qualification

The psychology is interesting though...

Why is that a kiwi with e.g. two welsh parents is less welsh than an Englishman with two welsh parents

Anscombe’s welshness has been called into question... but he is as welsh as Alex cuthbert who never had these issues


Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:14 am
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
Don’t have that much of in issue with it... both patents from England sounds legit qualification

The psychology is interesting though...

Why is that a kiwi with e.g. two welsh parents is less welsh than an Englishman with two welsh parents

Anscombe’s welshness has been called into question... but he is as welsh as Alex cuthbert who never had these issues


I agree with you mate, simply based on qualification there can't be a problem? However, I can understand some furore being generated, mainly, because you have in the Aviva, the self-proclaimed greatest Rugby league in the world, a country with so many native registered players available, yet England currently, is clearly seen as the most 'International, National side' in World rugby! Not forgetting of course, the English propensity to often 'nail' the All Blacks for 'Raiding the Islands' when nothing of the sort has ever been the case? So yes, I can understand the furore even if I disagree with it?

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Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:38 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Get the popcorn this is going to be fun
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... d-in-court

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Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:05 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Not a fan of selecting him, the fact is the English premiership DOES have good flankers and players who operated well at the breakdown. The issue the that successive English coaches have refused to select them which has given the impression that we have no home grown talent up to the task. I'd be disappointed if Jones just plonks in Shields for our tour of SA with Robshaw or Haskell. I have a bad feeling Jones is not going to use the SA tour to give English players a chance and is going to continue to stick with the same group and same tactics. The fact it's taken coming 5th for him to even acknowledge there was a problem is kinda worrying when the signs have been there for over a year.

As for this situation, NZ don't really have a leg to stand on. WR rules explicitly say that if a player is eligible to play for a country then the clubs are not allowed to block him from being selected to play for them during the designated international windows. Doesn't matter what is in his contract, the contract is in breach of WR rules. The only reason this hasn't been an issue before is because a player based in NZ has not be called up to play for another international team whilst still being based in NZ. If it goes to court then WR will simply ask why they mandate all NZ club players sign a clause that directly contradicts WR rules on releasing players for internationals. I think if push comes to shove, WR will just declare that clause is null and void.

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Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:36 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
Not a fan of selecting him, the fact is the English premiership DOES have good flankers and players who operated well at the breakdown. The issue the that successive English coaches have refused to select them which has given the impression that we have no home grown talent up to the task. I'd be disappointed if Jones just plonks in Shields for our tour of SA with Robshaw or Haskell. I have a bad feeling Jones is not going to use the SA tour to give English players a chance and is going to continue to stick with the same group and same tactics. The fact it's taken coming 5th for him to even acknowledge there was a problem is kinda worrying when the signs have been there for over a year.

As for this situation, NZ don't really have a leg to stand on. WR rules explicitly say that if a player is eligible to play for a country then the clubs are not allowed to block him from being selected to play for them during the designated international windows. Doesn't matter what is in his contract, the contract is in breach of WR rules. The only reason this hasn't been an issue before is because a player based in NZ has not be called up to play for another international team whilst still being based in NZ. If it goes to court then WR will simply ask why they mandate all NZ club players sign a clause that directly contradicts WR rules on releasing players for internationals. I think if push comes to shove, WR will just declare that clause is null and void.


What flankers would you pick?


Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:12 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Cymru am byth wrote:
Troron wrote:
Not a fan of selecting him, the fact is the English premiership DOES have good flankers and players who operated well at the breakdown. The issue the that successive English coaches have refused to select them which has given the impression that we have no home grown talent up to the task. I'd be disappointed if Jones just plonks in Shields for our tour of SA with Robshaw or Haskell. I have a bad feeling Jones is not going to use the SA tour to give English players a chance and is going to continue to stick with the same group and same tactics. The fact it's taken coming 5th for him to even acknowledge there was a problem is kinda worrying when the signs have been there for over a year.

As for this situation, NZ don't really have a leg to stand on. WR rules explicitly say that if a player is eligible to play for a country then the clubs are not allowed to block him from being selected to play for them during the designated international windows. Doesn't matter what is in his contract, the contract is in breach of WR rules. The only reason this hasn't been an issue before is because a player based in NZ has not be called up to play for another international team whilst still being based in NZ. If it goes to court then WR will simply ask why they mandate all NZ club players sign a clause that directly contradicts WR rules on releasing players for internationals. I think if push comes to shove, WR will just declare that clause is null and void.


What flankers would you pick?


6 - Willis, Armand, Wilson, Ewers, Underhill
7 - Curry x2, Kvesic

I suspect there is a 7 I'm missing that will come back to me some time. The likes of Underhill could be a 7 but that would not address our breakdown issues, it would only work if the tactics change so we actually get enough people to the breakdown and raw physicality will be good enough. On a completely unrelated note, just read Mako Vunipola is only 27... Bloody hell he looks the later half of 30.

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Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:08 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
Not a fan of selecting him, the fact is the English premiership DOES have good flankers and players who operated well at the breakdown. The issue the that successive English coaches have refused to select them which has given the impression that we have no home grown talent up to the task. I'd be disappointed if Jones just plonks in Shields for our tour of SA with Robshaw or Haskell. I have a bad feeling Jones is not going to use the SA tour to give English players a chance and is going to continue to stick with the same group and same tactics. The fact it's taken coming 5th for him to even acknowledge there was a problem is kinda worrying when the signs have been there for over a year.

As for this situation, NZ don't really have a leg to stand on. WR rules explicitly say that if a player is eligible to play for a country then the clubs are not allowed to block him from being selected to play for them during the designated international windows. Doesn't matter what is in his contract, the contract is in breach of WR rules. The only reason this hasn't been an issue before is because a player based in NZ has not be called up to play for another international team whilst still being based in NZ. If it goes to court then WR will simply ask why they mandate all NZ club players sign a clause that directly contradicts WR rules on releasing players for internationals. I think if push comes to shove, WR will just declare that clause is null and void.

I don’t know if WR can just cancel his NZ contract. To play super rugby you must be eligible for the blackness(I think 2 NNZQ players are allowed). Shields could probably just up and leave, but he wouldn’t be able to play after the tour. He’d probably have a bunch of team mates pissed as well, but his future is important so he should choose based on himself and his family.
In saying all that, it’s not a good look for depth in England, and it must be a slap in the face for all the flankers up there.

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Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
loosechange wrote:
I don’t know if WR can just cancel his NZ contract. To play super rugby you must be eligible for the blackness(I think 2 NNZQ players are allowed). Shields could probably just up and leave, but he wouldn’t be able to play after the tour. He’d probably have a bunch of team mates pissed as well, but his future is important so he should choose based on himself and his family.
In saying all that, it’s not a good look for depth in England, and it must be a slap in the face for all the flankers up there.


It wouldn't be a case of cancelling his contract, it would just be a case of saying that specific clause that is in every NZ club players contract is not valid. Otherwise what's the point of WR having designated rugby international windows if clubs can prevent players being released just by putting a clause in the contract?

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Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:17 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
Troron wrote:
Not a fan of selecting him, the fact is the English premiership DOES have good flankers and players who operated well at the breakdown. The issue the that successive English coaches have refused to select them which has given the impression that we have no home grown talent up to the task. I'd be disappointed if Jones just plonks in Shields for our tour of SA with Robshaw or Haskell. I have a bad feeling Jones is not going to use the SA tour to give English players a chance and is going to continue to stick with the same group and same tactics. The fact it's taken coming 5th for him to even acknowledge there was a problem is kinda worrying when the signs have been there for over a year.

As for this situation, NZ don't really have a leg to stand on. WR rules explicitly say that if a player is eligible to play for a country then the clubs are not allowed to block him from being selected to play for them during the designated international windows. Doesn't matter what is in his contract, the contract is in breach of WR rules. The only reason this hasn't been an issue before is because a player based in NZ has not be called up to play for another international team whilst still being based in NZ. If it goes to court then WR will simply ask why they mandate all NZ club players sign a clause that directly contradicts WR rules on releasing players for internationals. I think if push comes to shove, WR will just declare that clause is null and void.


What flankers would you pick?


6 - Willis, Armand, Wilson, Ewers, Underhill
7 - Curry x2, Kvesic

I suspect there is a 7 I'm missing that will come back to me some time. The likes of Underhill could be a 7 but that would not address our breakdown issues, it would only work if the tactics change so we actually get enough people to the breakdown and raw physicality will be good enough. On a completely unrelated note, just read Mako Vunipola is only 27... Bloody hell he looks the later half of 30.


Mako just has one of those faces that looks closer to 40 for most of his life.

When he was 18 with Billy who was 16.
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Bringing in talent from abroad has its advantages but it must be disheartening for the England underage players to see the latest just off the boat Eddie recruit. The Celtic nations have to do it because of the smaller player pools but England shouldn't need too.


Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:35 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
loosechange wrote:
I don’t know if WR can just cancel his NZ contract. To play super rugby you must be eligible for the blackness(I think 2 NNZQ players are allowed). Shields could probably just up and leave, but he wouldn’t be able to play after the tour. He’d probably have a bunch of team mates pissed as well, but his future is important so he should choose based on himself and his family.
In saying all that, it’s not a good look for depth in England, and it must be a slap in the face for all the flankers up there.


It wouldn't be a case of cancelling his contract, it would just be a case of saying that specific clause that is in every NZ club players contract is not valid. Otherwise what's the point of WR having designated rugby international windows if clubs can prevent players being released just by putting a clause in the contract?

What would be the point of having contracts if WR can just stroll in and cancel them? NZ has this clause in place so they don’t have to lose players during the season, and it’s part of the reason they don’t employ overseas players.
If it went to court and he was allowed to play up north, I’d guess that the NZRFU would just rip his contract up.
I’m not to fussed what happens tbh, if shields(who is a cracking player) wants to go then good luck to him.
I guess we will find out what happens in the coming weeks.

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Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:46 am
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
loosechange wrote:
What would be the point of having contracts if WR can just stroll in and cancel them? NZ has this clause in place so they don’t have to lose players during the season, and it’s part of the reason they don’t employ overseas players
.......


Do you know which came first - the WR rule or the NZ clause?
If it's the NZ clause there'll be an arm wrestle.
If it's the WR rule it's clear cut. WR "wins".


Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:18 am
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Just checked it, players who are eligible to play for the national team of the country the club is based in as well as another can have this clause. So in the case of Shields it looks like NZ are covered. If the player was no eligible to play for NZ then the clause would not be valid.

Well blessing in disguise as long as Jones uses this opportunity to try some other English flankers. If he plays the same yet again then he has lost the plot.

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Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:54 am
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