It is currently Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:06 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Wales should build team around patchell 
Author Message
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 7670
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Blindside wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
Copper wrote:
If Patchell had been at No10 yesterday...blah blah....
The pack was poor. The only time it seemed to fire was when the later changes were made.
The scrum was unable to put on any pressure, the line-out was not too bad, there were no driving mauls as usual and the break down a disaster area.
Possession, what little we seemed to have, was slower than lorises after brexit.
To think that Patchell would have improved this is for the birdies.


Not true... the implication of your post (correct me if I’m wrong) is your pack needs to be on the front foot before scoring points. If you look at teams like Australia, and any team which has beaten a top SA side, the pack may not be on the front foot.

Therefore it is about selecting personnel which can cause the opposition problems in different ways. In all honesty wales don’t have a set of forwards who can dominate. Not in my opinion. Therefore selection needs to look at different things.

For the record I don’t think patchell at 10 is necessarily the answer. But my issue is gatland is a size man (just look at his lions selection with o’brian - with all choices available at 7) but we don’t have the power he could call on a few years ago.




Decent point, Australia for a period struggled at scrum time in particular, however, they played a 15 man game magnificently. there is a difference in that Australia over the years have been magnificently innovative and progressive in their approach to rugby, groundbreaking. Wales have not been groundbreaking since the 70's, since Carwyn. I heard a term on a political programme this morning that said we need to stop piggybacking regards to other peoples ideas and start leapfrogging, how true this is of Welsh rugby, its quite a sterile environment in both the short and long term, we are reactive, not proactive.


That is true.

We see New Zealand do something and 12 months later we try it. The most innovative thing of recent years is the 14 man line out!


Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:33 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:08 pm
Posts: 3521
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Blindside wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
Copper wrote:
If Patchell had been at No10 yesterday...blah blah....
The pack was poor. The only time it seemed to fire was when the later changes were made.
The scrum was unable to put on any pressure, the line-out was not too bad, there were no driving mauls as usual and the break down a disaster area.
Possession, what little we seemed to have, was slower than lorises after brexit.
To think that Patchell would have improved this is for the birdies.


Not true... the implication of your post (correct me if I’m wrong) is your pack needs to be on the front foot before scoring points. If you look at teams like Australia, and any team which has beaten a top SA side, the pack may not be on the front foot.

Therefore it is about selecting personnel which can cause the opposition problems in different ways. In all honesty wales don’t have a set of forwards who can dominate. Not in my opinion. Therefore selection needs to look at different things.

For the record I don’t think patchell at 10 is necessarily the answer. But my issue is gatland is a size man (just look at his lions selection with o’brian - with all choices available at 7) but we don’t have the power he could call on a few years ago.




Decent point, Australia for a period struggled at scrum time in particular, however, they played a 15 man game magnificently. there is a difference in that Australia over the years have been magnificently innovative and progressive in their approach to rugby, groundbreaking. Wales have not been groundbreaking since the 70's, since Carwyn. I heard a term on a political programme this morning that said we need to stop piggybacking regards to other peoples ideas and start leapfrogging, how true this is of Welsh rugby, its quite a sterile environment in both the short and long term, we are reactive, not proactive.


Yes innovation is hardly a strong point. I think if anything this 6 nations has highlighted the forwards are a bit underpowered. Functional at set piece (apart from the France game) but lack bite in open play

Maybe the innovation is how to win a game with 30-40% possession?

For me the Scots game was a red herring as Scotland still enjoyed large chunks of possession,.. they just shot them selves in the foot and we countered quite well


Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:03 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pm
Posts: 13195
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
It should be remembered that the NZ success comes from their integrated infrastructure and not just the coach pf the All Blacks ;)

_________________
Imageimage url uploadEasy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..


Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:08 pm
Profile
World XV Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 2878
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Tony Panties wrote:
It should be remembered that the NZ success comes from their integrated infrastructure and not just the coach pf the All Blacks ;)


Yes, the main division in World Rugby is not really NH versus SH, but NZ versus everyone else.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:12 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:39 am
Posts: 11909
Location: Neath Valley
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Tony Panties wrote:
It should be remembered that the NZ success comes from their integrated infrastructure and not just the coach pf the All Blacks ;)




Exactly, there lies the leapfrog. Identifying talent earlier with targeted appropriate coaching that is dependent on continuing participation in a committed manner with the parent club. There is no instant fix, but there is a fix. The research is out there on skill acquisition.

_________________
"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:17 pm
Profile E-mail
thread ruining clique
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:26 pm
Posts: 19672
Location: Dinbych
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
People should remember that Patchell is 100% Ginge.
If we promote him to our number one number ten, then Ginges from all over the world will get behind us.
Estimated rates claim that ginger spending power is up to twenty-five percent of the current gross.
We should corner the ginger market.

_________________
Wubba dubba dub dub


Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:18 pm
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 5:40 pm
Posts: 61757
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Wales may want to build around Patchell, the same way Ireland depends on Sexton.

Sexton, (via Gatland), helped turn Farrell into a 12 , and Farrell was shown up last Saturday as a 12 playing at 10.

_________________
We are all in the gutter but me and my mam are looking at the stars!


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:11 pm
Profile
World XV Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 2878
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Langland Exile wrote:
Wales may want to build around Patchell, the same way Ireland depends on Sexton.


The fact that Ireland depend so much on Sexton (and Murray) is potentially their biggest weakness - as Wales proved last year, once you target them then Ireland's game has a high risk of going tits up. There is also the issue of who is genuine cover for Ireland at 9 and 10 - they have now got good strength-in-depth in many other positions, but not really those?


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:14 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 5:40 pm
Posts: 61757
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
najbritcol wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Wales may want to build around Patchell, the same way Ireland depends on Sexton.


The fact that Ireland depend so much on Sexton (and Murray) is potentially their biggest weakness - as Wales proved last year, once you target them then Ireland's game has a high risk of going tits up. There is also the issue of who is genuine cover for Ireland at 9 and 10 - they have now got good strength-in-depth in many other positions, but not really those?


Who cares, and it isn't relevant to this discussion

_________________
We are all in the gutter but me and my mam are looking at the stars!


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:16 pm
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pm
Posts: 13195
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Langland Exile wrote:
Wales may want to build around Patchell, the same way Ireland depends on Sexton.

Sexton, (via Gatland), helped turn Farrell into a 12 , and Farrell was shown up last Saturday as a 12 playing at 10.



and the said whoever falls under a bus.

This is getting silly :D

_________________
Imageimage url uploadEasy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:16 pm
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:25 pm
Posts: 4679
Location: North of England
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Langland Exile wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Wales may want to build around Patchell, the same way Ireland depends on Sexton.


The fact that Ireland depend so much on Sexton (and Murray) is potentially their biggest weakness - as Wales proved last year, once you target them then Ireland's game has a high risk of going tits up. There is also the issue of who is genuine cover for Ireland at 9 and 10 - they have now got good strength-in-depth in many other positions, but not really those?


Who cares, and it isn't relevant to this discussion


No technically it isn't, but to answer Naj and his contention of successors:

Carbery is Sexton's long term substitute: has all the requisite skills and creativity, with an eye for space.

Marmion is probably the best we have after Murray at 9, but nowhere near the Munster man and his ability to marshal a match.

So after that, probably Luke McGrath, because Cooney and Marshall at the Kingspan, are not (for me), serious candidates for a green shirt and I wonder how Duncan Williams at Munster, has made it this far,TBH.

OK, thread back on track. lads.

Sean


Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:22 am
Profile E-mail
International Player

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 1208
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
If we could beat the All Blacks we could beat anyone we played, we could win the World Cup.
So our strategy should be to identify what sort of game do we need the national side to develop in order to do that. Broadly speaking there are two options and neither guarantee success.
Safety first predominates and we hope the opposition score less than us.
Go for it predominates and we hope that we score more than the opposition.
The question is which approach would give us the better chance of beating the All Blacks.
And that choice determines who's selected.


Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:23 am
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 7670
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
eog wrote:
If we could beat the All Blacks we could beat anyone we played, we could win the World Cup.
So our strategy should be to identify what sort of game do we need the national side to develop in order to do that. Broadly speaking there are two options and neither guarantee success.
Safety first predominates and we hope the opposition score less than us.
Go for it predominates and we hope that we score more than the opposition.
The question is which approach would give us the better chance of beating the All Blacks.
And that choice determines who's selected.


To win, you need both. You need to be able to innovate and attack. You also need to know how to play conservatively. If you don't know how to to both you won't win.


Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:12 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:39 am
Posts: 11909
Location: Neath Valley
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Cymru am byth wrote:
eog wrote:
If we could beat the All Blacks we could beat anyone we played, we could win the World Cup.
So our strategy should be to identify what sort of game do we need the national side to develop in order to do that. Broadly speaking there are two options and neither guarantee success.
Safety first predominates and we hope the opposition score less than us.
Go for it predominates and we hope that we score more than the opposition.
The question is which approach would give us the better chance of beating the All Blacks.
And that choice determines who's selected.


To win, you need both. You need to be able to innovate and attack. You also need to know how to play conservatively. If you don't know how to to both you won't win.




I think you'd agree that the kind of change needed is not down to a change of strategy in the short term, but a change of approach in the long term. Hendry and Hanson had limited success with Wales. Parkes has been a mainstay of the Welsh team, but was nothing out of the ordinary in his NZ. TF at 8 is the only player likely to make the NZ team. Their game loses excellent players due to the lure of big oney but the production line carries on.

_________________
"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:51 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 7670
Post Re: Wales should build team around patchell
Blindside wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
eog wrote:
If we could beat the All Blacks we could beat anyone we played, we could win the World Cup.
So our strategy should be to identify what sort of game do we need the national side to develop in order to do that. Broadly speaking there are two options and neither guarantee success.
Safety first predominates and we hope the opposition score less than us.
Go for it predominates and we hope that we score more than the opposition.
The question is which approach would give us the better chance of beating the All Blacks.
And that choice determines who's selected.


To win, you need both. You need to be able to innovate and attack. You also need to know how to play conservatively. If you don't know how to to both you won't win.




I think you'd agree that the kind of change needed is not down to a change of strategy in the short term, but a change of approach in the long term. Hendry and Hanson had limited success with Wales. Parkes has been a mainstay of the Welsh team, but was nothing out of the ordinary in his NZ. TF at 8 is the only player likely to make the NZ team. Their game loses excellent players due to the lure of big oney but the production line carries on.


I would completely agree. I also think a view needs to be made beyond solely looking at the national team and the influence the coach has, to one - as you have mentioned - of looking wider at the systemic problems of Welsh rugby.

However, with the ingredients a national coach has when he gets his squad, I think my message can absolutely be looked at as narrowly as considering tactics in one specific match. There are selection issues and approaches that even within the national set up that are always open for debate and I think that the coach - despite the wider context and environment in which he operates - always has the opportunity to influence results. Let's be fair, our first 15 when fit could still give NZ a run for their money.


Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:19 pm
Profile E-mail
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: