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England finish fifth 
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Cymru am byth wrote:
wombles wrote:
Prys#1 wrote:
What we can take from it is that England finished 5th because over 5 games against 5 different sides they were the 5th best.

History books will say they finished one place above an abysmal Italian side.


Yet we defeated Wales! Yet Scotland who lost to Wales, but beat England, who lost to France, who lost to Scotland who barely scraped past Italy.

You are grabbing at insignificant straws! as will all England, Wales, Scotland and French supporters. Ireland aside, this table really means very little, and is so insignificant as to be laughable if any one supporter from any of these 4 sides tries to use it. Not one of us on this tournaments performances are anything more than also rans for next years world cup.


That sums it up. The table is misleading in my opinion and I can't say I have looked properly but what would it have looked like without bonus points?

One of the tightest Six Nations for a long time.


Ireland would still win ;)

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Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:02 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
The team that should feel disappointed is France. They should have beaten both us and Ireland and arguably Scotland. Apart from Ireland they have the most to be positive about. If they sort out their backs they will be highly competitive because their pack is looking impressive.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:50 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Pearcey3 wrote:
The team that should feel disappointed is France.

They should have beaten both us and Ireland and arguably Scotland.

Apart from Ireland they have the most to be positive about. If they sort out their backs they will be highly competitive because their pack is looking impressive.


Wales took care of Bastareaud much better than the other 6N sides.

That was good to see.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:19 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Bouch wrote:
Pearcey3 wrote:
The team that should feel disappointed is France.

They should have beaten both us and Ireland and arguably Scotland.

Apart from Ireland they have the most to be positive about. If they sort out their backs they will be highly competitive because their pack is looking impressive.


Wales took care of Bastareaud much better than the other 6N sides.

That was good to see.

I think Edwards worked overtime on that one. :D


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:27 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Troron wrote:

.... highlights just how much the breakdown and shoddy discipline played in our 5th position.


Eddy did what so many have tried to do with England - went for muscle and a lack of pace rather than a nippy 7 and 8.

Getting to the ball 2nd or even 3rd is not good.

Pace is even more important these days and a quick and powerful back row is worth its weight in prize money.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:29 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Bouchy. I thought Bastereaud played well. Not sure what to make of the Welsh defensive effort. On the one hand we did well to restrict them to one try. Yet we missed 26 tackles which is the highest I can recall in a long time.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:32 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Bastareaud was handled well, mate.

He still contributed - and he was good - but he was not devastating.

Our centres were very good.

:thumbup:


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:35 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
The missed tackle count was far too high but there were other tacklers covering the first rank.

I bet the defence coach was mental on times but I enjoyed his antics at the final whistle, Pearcey.

:shock:


Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:38 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Bouch wrote:
The missed tackle count was far too high but there were other tacklers covering the first rank.

I bet the defence coach was mental on times but I enjoyed his antics at the final whistle, Pearcey.

:shock:


You certainly can not fault his passion.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:05 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
wombles wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
If Eddie Jones can be applauded for improving England, then I'm not sure howbhe can also be blamed for their decline? I think that the last few matches are a blip for them or their supposed dominance last year should also be interpreted as a blip? In the six nations unless one team dominates, thrashing their opponents, it's too easy to view a narrow victory with rose tinted glasses. Our win today will not be reflected as one that we deserved to lose.


It is not that simple. Eddie over the last 12 months is starting to look more and more shaky. He was making odd selections, contradicting his terms of form over names, and quite clearly narrowed his mind and tactics (Wigglesworth over Robson, Ford over Cips being two selections that showed his lack of ability and development). For his fastidiousness, he neither recruited a attack or breakdown coach. He lost the sight of the big picture by focusing on the insignificant. Our game plan narrowed, our flank defence suffered, our discipline became unacceptably poor, our play prescribed, and we lost the ability to think and adjust to the challenge the oppo brings!

I wish it was easy to dismiss, but Eddie and his coaches surfed the tide of success, yet deteriorated the play and form, and when the time came to stand up, flopped more than a fish in the fishermans boat! It was bad...actually it was very very bad, as they had the money, resources and player pool to be better! You cannot trust them when they have failed this badly and did not have the ability to adjust and learn so close to the next world cup, when they had so much at their disposal!


I agree. There was a subtext to my post that was too ambiguous, apologies:

My point was that I think Lancaster was underrated. The changes he made to the England team were the most profound I believe since 2003. He gambled on selection got rid of some old players and had England playing well. Whilst I do think Jones took them further than Lancaster was possible to, the groundwork had been done before he arrived. A bit like Hansen and Ruddock for Wales.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:32 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Agree about Lancaster being underrated. He threw away a lot of excellent work with a very timid team selection against us in the World Cup.

Part of the problem for Jones is that some of his star players are not performing. Joseph has gone completely off the boil. Even Watson has looked well short of his best. Itoje has been far too indisciplined and he sticks with a captain who is nowhere near the best hooker and skippers a club side that has fallen apart.

As it happens I thought England played well in patches yesterday and it was only brilliant Irish defence that kept them out but they do not have a dominant pack any more and they are struggling to cope as a result. Their biggest weakness is of course at the breakdown and until they can source a quality 7 this will remain a major problem


Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:40 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Wombles - I do maintain that this 6 Nations was a blip or too difficult to call, for teams 2-5. Can it seriously be argued that England were the 5th best team?

Lots of ifs and buts in the tournament but had we been given the disallowed try against England and had we not given away an interception try against Ireland we could have won a Grand Slam.

Had Sexton not kicked one goal and had Trinh-duc been playing half decent yesterday and had Sexton not kicked that goal, France would have been champions.

The only games I saw (I missed a few) where I was entirely convinced by the result were Wales against Scotland and Ireland.

Scotland remain an enigma. We hammered them, convincingly. Yet they beat England and France and narrowly beat Italy. If someone can realistically assess Scotland from their Six Nations, then please let me knka.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:42 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
As I have said many times before on these boards the six nations is just a training competition for the RWC, I don't think you Welshies will ever understand that.

But England are still better than Wales as we beat you and you know more than anyone as long as we beat the Welsh that's all that matters :thefinger:


Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:38 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Pearcey3 wrote:
Agree about Lancaster being underrated. He threw away a lot of excellent work with a very timid team selection against us in the World Cup.

Part of the problem for Jones is that some of his star players are not performing. Joseph has gone completely off the boil. Even Watson has looked well short of his best. Itoje has been far too indisciplined and he sticks with a captain who is nowhere near the best hooker and skippers a club side that has fallen apart.

As it happens I thought England played well in patches yesterday and it was only brilliant Irish defence that kept them out but they do not have a dominant pack any more and they are struggling to cope as a result. Their biggest weakness is of course at the breakdown and until they can source a quality 7 this will remain a major problem


WRT Lancaster, I still hope that some day he will come back as the head of U20 development as I think that will suit his skillset perfectly. Identify young talent, develop them over 2 years and pass them into senior rugby. It will be a bit humiliating after being head coach at one point but I believe he could contribute so much there.

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Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:47 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Troron wrote:
Pearcey3 wrote:
Agree about Lancaster being underrated. He threw away a lot of excellent work with a very timid team selection against us in the World Cup.

Part of the problem for Jones is that some of his star players are not performing. Joseph has gone completely off the boil. Even Watson has looked well short of his best. Itoje has been far too indisciplined and he sticks with a captain who is nowhere near the best hooker and skippers a club side that has fallen apart.

As it happens I thought England played well in patches yesterday and it was only brilliant Irish defence that kept them out but they do not have a dominant pack any more and they are struggling to cope as a result. Their biggest weakness is of course at the breakdown and until they can source a quality 7 this will remain a major problem


WRT Lancaster, I still hope that some day he will come back as the head of U20 development as I think that will suit his skillset perfectly. Identify young talent, develop them over 2 years and pass them into senior rugby. It will be a bit humiliating after being head coach at one point but I believe he could contribute so much there.


I hope he becomes a regional coach in Wales.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:01 pm
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