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England finish fifth 
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Post Re: England finish fifth
The weirdest bit for me, England scored the 2nd most tries and conceded the 2nd fewest...

Really highlights just how much the breakdown and shoddy discipline played in our 5th position. I was genuinely surprised to see that when I checked the table.

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Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:14 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Troron wrote:
The weirdest bit for me, England scored the 2nd most tries and conceded the 2nd fewest...

Really highlights just how much the breakdown and shoddy discipline played in our 5th position. I was genuinely surprised to see that when I checked the table.


Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Every team had its particular weaknesses, not so much Ireland of course!

Seriously, breakdown a real problem for England, fatally undermined them; of course it is inextricably linked with discipline.


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:18 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
wombles wrote:
Prys#1 wrote:
What we can take from it is that England finished 5th because over 5 games against 5 different sides they were the 5th best.

History books will say they finished one place above an abysmal Italian side.


Yet we defeated Wales! Yet Scotland who lost to Wales, but beat England, who lost to France, who lost to Scotland who barely scraped past Italy.

You are grabbing at insignificant straws! as will all England, Wales, Scotland and French supporters. Ireland aside, this table really means very little, and is so insignificant as to be laughable if any one supporter from any of these 4 sides tries to use it. Not one of us on this tournaments performances are anything more than also rans for next years world cup.


That sums it up. The table is misleading in my opinion and I can't say I have looked properly but what would it have looked like without bonus points?

One of the tightest Six Nations for a long time.


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:20 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
wombles wrote:
Prys#1 wrote:
What we can take from it is that England finished 5th because over 5 games against 5 different sides they were the 5th best.

History books will say they finished one place above an abysmal Italian side.


Yet we defeated Wales! Yet Scotland who lost to Wales, but beat England, who lost to France, who lost to Scotland who barely scraped past Italy.

You are grabbing at insignificant straws! as will all England, Wales, Scotland and French supporters. Ireland aside, this table really means very little, and is so insignificant as to be laughable if any one supporter from any of these 4 sides tries to use it. Not one of us on this tournaments performances are anything more than also rans for next years world cup.


5th.
out of 6.

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Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:23 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Would have looked much the same. Only difference, England 4th and France 5th


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:24 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
buglet wrote:
Would have looked much the same. Only difference, England 4th and France 5th


Thanks.


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:25 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
rugbydan wrote:
wombles wrote:
Prys#1 wrote:
What we can take from it is that England finished 5th because over 5 games against 5 different sides they were the 5th best.

History books will say they finished one place above an abysmal Italian side.


Yet we defeated Wales! Yet Scotland who lost to Wales, but beat England, who lost to France, who lost to Scotland who barely scraped past Italy.

You are grabbing at insignificant straws! as will all England, Wales, Scotland and French supporters. Ireland aside, this table really means very little, and is so insignificant as to be laughable if any one supporter from any of these 4 sides tries to use it. Not one of us on this tournaments performances are anything more than also rans for next years world cup.


5th.
out of 6.


Quite

But -Ireland aside - none of us are challengers for the world cup

oh

and we beat you (if you are Welsh)

See the futility of this?


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:29 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Cymru am byth wrote:
buglet wrote:
Would have looked much the same. Only difference, England 4th and France 5th


Thanks.


I think so anyway - did it in my head!


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:30 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
wombles wrote:
rugbydan wrote:
wombles wrote:
Prys#1 wrote:
What we can take from it is that England finished 5th because over 5 games against 5 different sides they were the 5th best.

History books will say they finished one place above an abysmal Italian side.


Yet we defeated Wales! Yet Scotland who lost to Wales, but beat England, who lost to France, who lost to Scotland who barely scraped past Italy.

You are grabbing at insignificant straws! as will all England, Wales, Scotland and French supporters. Ireland aside, this table really means very little, and is so insignificant as to be laughable if any one supporter from any of these 4 sides tries to use it. Not one of us on this tournaments performances are anything more than also rans for next years world cup.


5th.
out of 6.


Quite

But -Ireland aside - none of us are challengers for the world cup

oh

and we beat you (if you are Welsh)

See the futility of this?



Yes, there is a degree of futility and really, Wales were a poor second. However, I thibk you are glossing over a precipitous decline from England. Even allowing for all you say, and it is not without merit, England losing 3 and finishing fifth is not acceptable given England's resources.


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
buglet wrote:
wombles wrote:
rugbydan wrote:
wombles wrote:
Prys#1 wrote:
What we can take from it is that England finished 5th because over 5 games against 5 different sides they were the 5th best.

History books will say they finished one place above an abysmal Italian side.


Yet we defeated Wales! Yet Scotland who lost to Wales, but beat England, who lost to France, who lost to Scotland who barely scraped past Italy.

You are grabbing at insignificant straws! as will all England, Wales, Scotland and French supporters. Ireland aside, this table really means very little, and is so insignificant as to be laughable if any one supporter from any of these 4 sides tries to use it. Not one of us on this tournaments performances are anything more than also rans for next years world cup.


5th.
out of 6.


Quite

But -Ireland aside - none of us are challengers for the world cup

oh

and we beat you (if you are Welsh)

See the futility of this?



Yes, there is a degree i futility and really, Wales were a poor second. However, I thibk you are glossing over a precipitous decline from England. Even allowing for all you say, and it is not without merit, England losing 3 and finishing fifth is not acceptable given England's resources.


See my previous posts here and other threads, I am full aware of our decline, and I agree, with the money, power and resources we command it is starting to wear thin the continued lack of success! I am certain (actually I am convinced) that if Wales, Ireland, Scotland....or anyone else outside of the big rugby RFUs had the same resources, they would of been more successful! How galling is that, and what a waste!


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:36 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
If Eddie Jones can be applauded for improving England, then I'm not sure howbhe can also be blamed for their decline? I think that the last few matches are a blip for them or their supposed dominance last year should also be interpreted as a blip? In the six nations unless one team dominates, thrashing their opponents, it's too easy to view a narrow victory with rose tinted glasses. Our win today will not be reflected as one that we deserved to lose.


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:39 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Cymru am byth wrote:
If Eddie Jones can be applauded for improving England, then I'm not sure howbhe can also be blamed for their decline? I think that the last few matches are a blip for them or their supposed dominance last year should also be interpreted as a blip? In the six nations unless one team dominates, thrashing their opponents, it's too easy to view a narrow victory with rose tinted glasses. Our win today will not be reflected as one that we deserved to lose.


It is not that simple. Eddie over the last 12 months is starting to look more and more shaky. He was making odd selections, contradicting his terms of form over names, and quite clearly narrowed his mind and tactics (Wigglesworth over Robson, Ford over Cips being two selections that showed his lack of ability and development). For his fastidiousness, he neither recruited a attack or breakdown coach. He lost the sight of the big picture by focusing on the insignificant. Our game plan narrowed, our flank defence suffered, our discipline became unacceptably poor, our play prescribed, and we lost the ability to think and adjust to the challenge the oppo brings!

I wish it was easy to dismiss, but Eddie and his coaches surfed the tide of success, yet deteriorated the play and form, and when the time came to stand up, flopped more than a fish in the fishermans boat! It was bad...actually it was very very bad, as they had the money, resources and player pool to be better! You cannot trust them when they have failed this badly and did not have the ability to adjust and learn so close to the next world cup, when they had so much at their disposal!


Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:46 pm
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Post Re: England finish fifth
wombles wrote:
Prys#1 wrote:
What we can take from it is that England finished 5th because over 5 games against 5 different sides they were the 5th best.

History books will say they finished one place above an abysmal Italian side.


Yet we defeated Wales! Yet Scotland who lost to Wales, but beat England, who lost to France, who lost to Scotland who barely scraped past Italy.

You are grabbing at insignificant straws! as will all England, Wales, Scotland and French supporters. Ireland aside, this table really means very little, and is so insignificant as to be laughable if any one supporter from any of these 4 sides tries to use it. Not one of us on this tournaments performances are anything more than also rans for next years world cup.

The point of a league type competition is to finish as high as possible and ultimately you finish where you deserve to finish. Ireland were by far the best and finished 1st because they won all 5 games, Wales 2nd best etc etc

England finished 5th because over the championship they were the 5th best side.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:25 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
Wombles I don't really get where you are coming from here. I wouldn't rate us above anyone other than Italy in that tournament. I'd say it was more like:

1 - Ireland
2-4 - Wales/Scotland/France
5 - England
6 - Italy

There was just so much wrong with how we played this year that, despite beating the Welsh, I can't say we were really competing at the same level.

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Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:36 am
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Post Re: England finish fifth
England are a average side at best cant see them getting out of the group stage's again in the world cup and are a certainty for the wooden spoon next year.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:38 am
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