It is currently Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:07 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N? 
Author Message
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:42 am
Posts: 4786
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
With play off's, say Georgia would play Italy, that is a big (ish) extra pay day for both of them.
Add a home and away option plus as it would then be part of the 6N, televising it would be some very useful cash to both Italy and Georgia.

The following year there could maybe a fixed tour by all 6N sides to the loser, again Say Georgia. This would remove a lot of the financial barriers and give the upcoming team some good international experience to be even more competitive the following year so closing the gap.

Same if Italy were to lose. 5 touring games plus 2 playoffs would be a nice assistance back up for them.

_________________
.
Live for ever or die trying


Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:42 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 2612
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
Tony Panties wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Blindside wrote:
spinbreath wrote:
I can see both sides of the argument on this one.
From a pure rugby point of view, then yes. Italy offer very little, and a little healthy competition from (say) Georgia couldn't hurt.
On the flip side, yes it is about money - money that is vital to the wellbeing of the sport in this country. Wales has a seat at one of the premier sporting competitions in the world, and I'm not sure we should risk that.



Money is vital to the well being of a small proportion involved in the sport, regards those people the payment of money is not always beneficial to the sport itself. If Wales come last in the 6 Nations and win a playoff game then that can only be due to the inappropriate use of resources, particularly money. Welsh rugby is totally corrupted by the self-interest of the various groups and organisation and the agenda of the key personnel within those organisations. It would safer to have the possibility of relegation in place so that the arrogance of those involved is tempered by the cliff edge.



Finance is important to the MAINTENANÇE of the current system!
BS, I hear and somewhat sympathise with what you say but to bring it back to a sociopolitical aspect which I suspect that you align to too ...and I can identify with ...

It aint solvable easily ..it has the same problems and trauma to rectify... capitalist throttle hold on w/wide economic circumstance can't be overcome easily and even revolution is untennable....

Shut up Tel ...this extreme comparison is silly ...

It's not , imo it is very similar to the pro rugby circumstance and difficulty to correct it for the common good.

The powers that be are distinctly against radical change and geared to ulterior motives.

My point is that we have to realise that and not just share imaginary'magic wands.

Getting an even playing field has only a idealistic opportunity imo

end of rant, apologies.




I agree....... ive been to a meeting of the WRU as a club representative which discussed changes to the Premiership, to be announced in March, possible introduction of under 23 competition (which won't happen). It just seems to me that there have been professional people appointed who would like to create change, but the maintenance of the system is desired by those embedded in the system. If Welsh rugby cant adapt then it should face the consequences. Without consequences, it will never adapt as to many people are dug in. They will just change the personnel appointed Josh Lewsy etc


I think he is referring to the structure of global rugby in general, not just Wales, what with World Rugby, the Six Nations and the Tier One unions all wanting to keep the status quo for their own (mostly short-term) benefit, rather than a more open and long-term vision of genuinely expanding the game around the world.


BS had quoted Wales and I don't think that in terms of root problem that they are in any way different from others. It is generally symptomatic. The example is current.

There are rare personalities that seem genuinely progressive and I would rate the World Rugby VP Pichot as one of those. Unfortunately Billy B is President and the clique there are largely maintained ... the personalities may change but the Blazer Badge and type remain, Good God they even had Pickering in there one time before he got voted out of the major Executive Committee! Lapasset ex President went on to win France the Olympics venue ... it's a big swim ... ;)


I wasn't saying Wales were any different to the other major unions in this regard, but I don't think they are uniquely protectionist in this issue either. Rather, as you yourself say, ALL the major unions to varying degrees are stifling the creation of a more competitive level playing field for rugby around the globe (or at least in Europe, at any rate).

It also has to be said that the supposedly more 'progressive' SH unions are actually just as myopic as the NH unions as far as this is concerned. After all, look how long and protracted the long-debated idea of Fiji having a team in Super Rugby or even the Australian Rugby Championship is proving to be. Even including Argentina in the old Tri-Nations Championship was done rather slowly and reluctantly.


Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:47 pm
Profile E-mail
thread ruining clique
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:26 pm
Posts: 19292
Location: Dinbych
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
najbritcol wrote:
spinbreath wrote:
The game has been around for a hundred and forty odd years. How much more is it likely to expand?


Well, as I said ages ago in another thread, the game has already moved beyond the old Five Nations and SANZAR to include Argentina, Italy, Georgia, Romania, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and Japan as important nations. Furthermore, the USA, Uruguay, Namibia, Hong Kong, Spain, Germany and Russia are also on the up (professional Russian clubs Enisei and Krasny Yar have even beaten teams from France, England and Wales in the European Challenge Cup). Therefore, to spread rugby at a high level beyond the traditional powers is certainly far from impossible.

Rugby remains a sport that is popular in former British outposts and as a minor sport elsewhere, with a couple of exceptions. A country like Germany strikes me as having their shit together, and can't help but think if they were going to get into it, they would have been world champions by now.

_________________
I have no *fupping* idea what I'm talking about.


Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:04 pm
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pm
Posts: 12270
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
spinbreath wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
spinbreath wrote:
The game has been around for a hundred and forty odd years. How much more is it likely to expand?


Well, as I said ages ago in another thread, the game has already moved beyond the old Five Nations and SANZAR to include Argentina, Italy, Georgia, Romania, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and Japan as important nations. Furthermore, the USA, Uruguay, Namibia, Hong Kong, Spain, Germany and Russia are also on the up (professional Russian clubs Enisei and Krasny Yar have even beaten teams from France, England and Wales in the European Challenge Cup). Therefore, to spread rugby at a high level beyond the traditional powers is certainly far from impossible.

Rugby remains a sport that is popular in former British outposts and as a minor sport elsewhere, with a couple of exceptions. A country like Germany strikes me as having their shit together, and can't help but think if they were going to get into it, they would have been world champions by now.



Germany were in Rugby in early Olympics.

Billionaire Peter Wild has resuscitated German Rugby and he has taken over Stade Francais. It was hoped for/thought that he would increase German Club Rugby as a result but I heard recently that Wild had fallen out with German Rugby hierarchy

This was a Oct 2017 Times article on the subject :

Scrum Weekly | Alex Lowe
October 18 2017, 12:00pm, The Times
Stade Francais’ billionaire owner aims to grow German rugby

Alex Lowe, Deputy Rugby Correspondent

The Scrum Weekly: Dr Hans-Peter Wild, who made his fortune with Capri-Sun, says rugby’s values inspired him to develop the game in his homeland

When Dr Hans-Peter Wild was a student at Cambridge University, he could not afford a ticket to watch them play Oxford in the Varsity match at Twickenham. Dr Wild was a tennis player in those days and he loved playing on the grass courts of England, but he had grown up a rugby fan.

Dr Wild’s father was a rower, who competed at the 1928 Olympics in Amsterdam, but he played rugby in the winter for Heidelberg, the oldest club in Germany. Rudolf Wild would go on to launch Capri-Sun, while his son studied law and business before working in the oil industry.

In 1974, Dr Wild joined his parents’ business with the aim of establishing these pouches of sugary fruit drink as a global brand. He is now worth almost €3 billion.
Wild completed his takeover of Stade Francais in the summer

Not only can Dr Wild afford a ticket to Twickenham, but he has bankrolled the development of German rugby and in the summer he bought Stade Francais, the former French champions whose glitter has faded since those gaudy days under Max Guazzini.

Dr Wild stepped in to buy the club after the proposed merger with Racing 92 collapsed when the players went on strike.

He wants to have some fun with Stade, although there can’t have been too many smiles over the weekend as the squad made their way home from Siberia having lost to Krasny Yar in the European Challenge Cup, but he also believes it will benefit German rugby.

Dr Wild plans for Stade to work closely with the Wild Rugby Academy, which is based at a £30 million high-performance facility in Heidelberg, to help with the development of young players.

World Rugby are investing heavily in Germany and Guinness PRO14 organisers are monitoring their progress closely with a view to adding a professional team into the competition.

Rugby is different to soccer. There are no hooligans in rugby. It is different spectators, different people

“It is the values of rugby, building character since 1886, that was a driving force behind my engagement in rugby, certainly for my dad’s involvement and me later on when I had enough money to try and build it in Germany,” he told The Times.

“Rugby is different to soccer. There are no hooligans in rugby. It is different spectators, different people. It is a shame that this very important sport for character-building is not done in Germany. Germans are very disciplined people and they also have a lot of character. Rugby is a sport that builds those two things and supports them, but they don’t have that.

“For the last ten years I have had the Wild Rugby academy because I saw that without a professional team we won’t make any progress. This is the beginning.

“That is one of the reasons I bought Stade Francais. Stade Francais were in Germany in August and they were impressed with the level the Germans have already reached. They are already working together. This will be very beneficial for German rugby.”

It was Robert Mohr, the former Germany and La Rochelle captain, who recommended that Dr Wild should buy Stade Francais. Mohr is now manager of the Wild Rugby Academy. “He is the Beckenbauer of rugby,” Dr Wild said. “He is the only German to have captained a top European club and so people in Germany, where rugby is so amateur, accept his expertise.

“Robert came to me and we talked about it. For us it was a unique opportunity. One year ago it would have been too early, one year down the road was too late. I said, ‘OK, let’s go and do it’. We bought the club within two weeks.”

Our concept is not to recruit from all over the world but to develop our own players

The leading French clubs have all recruited galacticos on big money. Just across town, Racing 92 have Dan Carter on £1 million a year, and Stade used to be in that game, with James Haskell, George Smith, Juan Martín Hernández and Agustín Pichot among their most notable alumni.

They still have Sergio Parisse, one of the great No 8s of this or any era, and Morne Steyn but otherwise Stade are no longer in the market for the superstars. “There will be no Neymars coming to Paris for €222 million,” Dr Wild said.

“Our concept and the concept of Robert is to work with young payers. We have young players from the under-20 national team of France, we do very good work with education and building player talent. We have some innovative things in the pipeline and this is a strong club in developing young payers.

“Our concept is not to recruit from all over the world but to develop our own players. This is something we will work together with Germany.”

_________________
ImageEasy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..


Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:29 pm
Profile
British & Irish Lions Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:00 am
Posts: 2400
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
Personally I'd like to see the following format:

Increase to 8 nations split into 2 leagues. Home and away game in each league (so 6 total, 1 more than currently). Show a League A and League B game back to back on Saturday and Sunday so we get 4 games a weekend rather than 3. This should help League B get equal exposure. Promotion and relegation between the leagues done every 4 years based on the aggregate results over the those 4 years, so a side only goes up or down based on repeatedly good or bad performances rather than 1 good or bad year.

League A - England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland
League B - France, Italy, Romania, Georgia

Hopefully should allow fewer thrashings. Doubt it will be adopted but it would be my preference.

_________________
Image


Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 10:29 pm
Posts: 5896
Location: Lincoln
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
I'm against the idea of promotion and relegation. Imagine the fury if any of the old 5 nations finished bottom and got relegated even in a play off match, and besides, turkeys won't vote for Xmas. Ideally I'd like to see a 7 Nations with Georgia but it won't happen because of the domestic competitions, how would they fit in the extra weekend? If they went 8 Nations the current schedule could remain the same but which national side would be competing? It would be a thrashing of epic proportions if say Spain joined up. The other idea of two tiers of four is also unappealing because it would reduce the number of games by two unless they went home and away but then we're back to the various leagues objecting to the increase in the number of International games.

It doesn't seem fair that Georgia are left out as it was similarly unfair that Romania were ignored way back in the 80's pre Italy joining up.

My idea is to keep things as they are and then for the bottom two National sides in the 6 Nations to play the top two sides in the junior tournament in a mini league at another time of the year, possibly at the end of the various domestic seasons. The problem is fitting it into the calendar of course. This way the junior Nations could play better sides and improve their standards in a recognised tournament and then let's see where that takes us. The whole thing is a conundrum of epic proportions but the one thing that I do feel is something needs to be done if Union is to become truly a World game.

_________________
'I am Stepney, I am Peru, I am divine and so are you.' ( John Wardell, aka Jah Wobble from his album 'Take me to God' who when introduced to John Lydon in a pub was so utterly pissed he couldn't pronounce his own name which came out as 'Jah Wobble'.


Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:21 pm
Profile
World XV Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 2612
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
The big question is whether the much lower standards of most European teams outside the 6N is a cause of the traditional powers' inertia and conservatism or a consequence of it? (Maybe both?) Romania have already beaten France, Italy, Wales and Scotland (though admittedly none of them for a long time) and Georgia have ran Italy, Ireland, Scotland and of course Wales close. But apart from those two, no other European team would really compete with the 6N teams (including Italy).


Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:03 pm
Profile E-mail
British & Irish Lions Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:00 am
Posts: 2400
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
simondavis wrote:
I'm against the idea of promotion and relegation. Imagine the fury if any of the old 5 nations finished bottom and got relegated even in a play off match, and besides, turkeys won't vote for Xmas. Ideally I'd like to see a 7 Nations with Georgia but it won't happen because of the domestic competitions, how would they fit in the extra weekend? If they went 8 Nations the current schedule could remain the same but which national side would be competing? It would be a thrashing of epic proportions if say Spain joined up. The other idea of two tiers of four is also unappealing because it would reduce the number of games by two unless they went home and away but then we're back to the various leagues objecting to the increase in the number of International games.

It doesn't seem fair that Georgia are left out as it was similarly unfair that Romania were ignored way back in the 80's pre Italy joining up.

My idea is to keep things as they are and then for the bottom two National sides in the 6 Nations to play the top two sides in the junior tournament in a mini league at another time of the year, possibly at the end of the various domestic seasons. The problem is fitting it into the calendar of course. This way the junior Nations could play better sides and improve their standards in a recognised tournament and then let's see where that takes us. The whole thing is a conundrum of epic proportions but the one thing that I do feel is something needs to be done if Union is to become truly a World game.


To build on your idea, Wales have frequently fit an extra game in during the other internationals so I guess it's not beyond the realm of reason to instead try to arrange a single game matchup between a 6N and non-6N side. Personally I think it would be great if the English Saxons played the likes of Georgia.

_________________
Image


Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:07 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 10:29 pm
Posts: 5896
Location: Lincoln
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
najbritcol wrote:
The big question is whether the much lower standards of most European teams outside the 6N is a cause of the traditional powers' inertia and conservatism or a consequence of it? (Maybe both?) Romania have already beaten France, Italy, Wales and Scotland (though admittedly none of them for a long time) and Georgia have ran Italy, Ireland, Scotland and of course Wales close. But apart from those two, no other European team would really compete with the 6N teams (including Italy).


I don't really understand where you're coming from mate. Consequence I mean. Forgive me, I can't see how that applies. The way I see it is that it's down to the world governing body, can't remember what they are called, but isn't Augustine Pichot somewhere at the top and trying to move things along kind of in spite of the traditional rugby powers including the Sanzar Nations wanting to keep the Status Quo. I don't know enough about it to give an informed comment but I'm pretty sure that at some level they are talking about it. :dontknow:

_________________
'I am Stepney, I am Peru, I am divine and so are you.' ( John Wardell, aka Jah Wobble from his album 'Take me to God' who when introduced to John Lydon in a pub was so utterly pissed he couldn't pronounce his own name which came out as 'Jah Wobble'.


Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:14 pm
Profile
World XV Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 2612
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
simondavis wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
The big question is whether the much lower standards of most European teams outside the 6N is a cause of the traditional powers' inertia and conservatism or a consequence of it? (Maybe both?) Romania have already beaten France, Italy, Wales and Scotland (though admittedly none of them for a long time) and Georgia have ran Italy, Ireland, Scotland and of course Wales close. But apart from those two, no other European team would really compete with the 6N teams (including Italy).


I don't really understand where you're coming from mate. Consequence I mean. Forgive me, I can't see how that applies. The way I see it is that it's down to the world governing body, can't remember what they are called, but isn't Augustine Pichot somewhere at the top and trying to move things along kind of in spite of the traditional rugby powers including the Sanzar Nations wanting to keep the Status Quo. I don't know enough about it to give an informed comment but I'm pretty sure that at some level they are talking about it. :dontknow:


It is true that World Rugby is trying to change things, e.g. with the residency rules that deplete the PIs in particular, and all the investment in the Tier Two countries it has made, but the major unions are still very powerful and to a large extent run World Rugby anyway (or at least heavily influence it).


Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:09 pm
Profile E-mail
International Player

Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:57 am
Posts: 807
Location: Leinster
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
Shouldn't we be first looking at building up the club/region structure in the second tier European nations otherwise we are just going to end up with a weaker version of Italy?


Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:21 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 7544
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
The format as it is really good. No reason to change.


Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:24 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pm
Posts: 12270
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
simondavis wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
The big question is whether the much lower standards of most European teams outside the 6N is a cause of the traditional powers' inertia and conservatism or a consequence of it? (Maybe both?) Romania have already beaten France, Italy, Wales and Scotland (though admittedly none of them for a long time) and Georgia have ran Italy, Ireland, Scotland and of course Wales close. But apart from those two, no other European team would really compete with the 6N teams (including Italy).


I don't really understand where you're coming from mate. Consequence I mean. Forgive me, I can't see how that applies. The way I see it is that it's down to the world governing body, can't remember what they are called, but isn't Augustine Pichot somewhere at the top and trying to move things along kind of in spite of the traditional rugby powers including the Sanzar Nations wanting to keep the Status Quo. I don't know enough about it to give an informed comment but I'm pretty sure that at some level they are talking about it. :dontknow:


Simon, I have covered the self centred lethargy and protectionist aspect of the major rugby authorities in above posts.
The World Rugby, Unions, Elite Clubs and EPCR are all guilty of this.

Example IRB now World Rugby promised a study of world wide timetable in 2007 and the first meeting on the subject was held in Paris during the World Cup that year. Nothing ......then recently because of more pressure from various quarters they have promised to propose one soon ...? This is fundamental to the modern game!

Lapasset had an objective to get Rugby 7s in the Olympics ...it was a kudos play but it did help visibility and encouraged more geography spread, he then buggered off and worked another World Cup for France despite SA recommendation. It's a big swim ;)

Billy B who was sidetracked by Lapasset in his previous bid for Presidency (Pickering was also kicked out in that election) is now President. I do agree with you Simon that Pichot current VP is progressive and sincere but he is surrounded by Blazers who are intent on the size and retention of their badges.m

Various contentious cartels are competitive to protect their own interests ...take the EPCR ..they promised a new 3 tier system at Club level in Europe to promote development ...it didn't happrn. The current major clubs with some invites in the Challenge Cup is seen to suffice.

The burgeoning Club governance in Europe is in contention with World Rugby and the European major Unions have had their authority usurped.Euro Club rugby is looking to expand ...cue Pri14 ambitions

The South Hemp has internal problems and Super Rugby content and schedules are disputed . SA is contemplating a Europe presence. The fiinancial status of S Hemp Unions relies on profit making internationals abroad and the likes of Lions tours etc. Therein there is reliance on 'close relations'

Player Unions are increasing in voice and presence ....cue timetables, injuries etc. International and elite club players are threatening revolt.

Given this turgid ratnest I cannot see clear progressive alteration and widening of 6 Nations format and presence.
Like it or like it not the current orotagonists are the governance and the business providers to the set up.....any change to radically break this would involve significant change to organisation, governance and cash flow.


I think that any close in change to the 6Ns will probably involve block scheduling in a more comprehensive world wide time table change and may even give way to less 6 Nations in intensive schedule years that include the likes of the now all important World Cup.

Outside of the internal Rugby fraternity in conflict the media is increasingly ruling the roost and they want best bucks and less interested in development.

Thinking of options can be a good debate but finally it has to come to the reality of the overall circumstance which imo makes the likelihood of progressive changes akin to peeing into the wind?

_________________
ImageEasy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..


Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:40 pm
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:42 am
Posts: 4786
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
Cymru am byth wrote:
The format as it is really good. No reason to change.



Something to be said for that too.

Before all the Hype about going regional we thought it was a good idea to 'Jazz it up' and get it up to date and several other buzzzzzzwords, but do you know, I still enjoyed it better when it was low level (call it crap level if you like) club v club. I still have not seen a regional game as involving and staying in my mind as the likes of Ponty and Breve.

I accept the argument change was needed, but we were far too ready to look at throwing out what we had for something sexy that was not a better product for the ordinary guy who went to games for fun.

_________________
.
Live for ever or die trying


Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:47 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 7544
Post Re: Should promotion and relegation be introduced to the 6N?
soap wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
The format as it is really good. No reason to change.



Something to be said for that too.

Before all the Hype about going regional we thought it was a good idea to 'Jazz it up' and get it up to date and several other buzzzzzzwords, but do you know, I still enjoyed it better when it was low level (call it crap level if you like) club v club. I still have not seen a regional game as involving and staying in my mind as the likes of Ponty and Breve.

I accept the argument change was needed, but we were far too ready to look at throwing out what we had for something sexy that was not a better product for the ordinary guy who went to games for fun.


The regional argument is a good one but there was justification for changing it I suppose, improving quality and so on. The Six Nations is financially great and is also the single most attended annual competition in the world. What need is there to change it? The predictability of planning a

Also there are surely diplomatic ties and friend that many rugby fans have made, abeit at a low level with the other nations this has surely had a small impact on the economy.


Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:05 am
Profile E-mail
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: