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Warburton out for 6 Ns 
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
eog wrote:
Blindside wrote:
eog wrote:
The Lions knew that he wouldn't be in consideration for their next tour in 2021 so didn't give a crap if, as a result of delayed knee surgery , he got crocked on their 2017 money making exercise.
That putting the wants of a rugby circus first could result in harming the future prospects of the player and the national team he pays for is not a concern of theirs.
It's the highest honour blah blah blah and the fans love the Lions so on it goes.



Surely that up to the player to decide, If the invitation touring team whose results are irrelevant to international rugby rankings didn't exist he'd be spared that decision. As are the players of every other rugby playing country except Ire, Scot and Eng preference of what is or isn't something they aspire to achieve. The rest of the world's rugby players seem to get along fine without feeling like underachievers for not being selected for a supra national team. Warburton seems very good at managing his own career. He could have decided to have the operation and declined to tour. Given the celebrity, the hype, the money, with practically all welsh rugby telling him the Lions captaincy is the pinnacle, with the national coach encouraging him. etc. surely you jest. Unless he's thick he can make his own judgments regards his body and what he decides are career goals. There's so much hype, money (see above) about the Lions it's irrelevant how thick or smart a player is. The temptation is huge. He isn't the first Welsh player to put off surgery in order to go a Lions tour, to their own and our national teams detriment (also their club/region).

For me, he has been a very average club player,he does step up to challenge of international rugby well though, form can be a issue for him but some of his international performances are top drawer. Which kind of makes you think he seldom gives his best for The Blues and has been a drain on resources rather than a asset.

Obviously a very good player on his day. To many average days to make him a great in my opinion. I'd put Martyn Williams before him as a player for both club and country..... I'd be in a small minority there though ;)

WTF we're getting pretty close to agreeing on that.



The results of the Lions may be irrelevant to world rugby rankings, so what :dontknow: Firstly id have to to care more about the rankings than anything else, i don't! Secondly, i would have to be convinced that the Lions mess up the ranking list, i don't. If the temptation is huge for a player to commit to the Lions than that shows the relevance of the concept, be it financial or honours, what ever floats a players boat.

If its supported by the players, supported by the media and enough of the fan base then it will continue to generate the finance to support it. Long may it continue. The point being mine or your opinions are but a grain of sand on the beach. You dont support it, i do.

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Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:58 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
eog wrote:
All you Lions fans this is your fault.


Do you really think he does it for us?

That is bloody mental!

The Man does it because he wants too!

More remarks like yours and he'll tell us to piss off :thefinger:


Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:26 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
eog wrote:
All you Lions fans this is your fault.


Do you really think he does it for us?
No Lions fans = no money = no Lions tours
That is bloody mental!
Simple economics if you give it a bit of thought
The Man does it because he wants too!
if Lions tours don't exist then the desire to go on one can't exit
More remarks like yours and he'll tell us to piss off :thefinger:

I'm sure he's got a lot of better things to do including dealing with knee surgery delayed by a Lions tour.


Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:49 am
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
Blindside wrote:

The results of the Lions may be irrelevant to world rugby rankings, so what :dontknow: Why burden already over played players and add extra risk of injuries and delayed surgery. We've covered all this earlier this year.Firstly id have to to care more about the rankings than anything else, i don't! New Zealand Australia and South Africa have stopped touring. That's because they have a professional approach to rugby. The home nations are stuck in a sentimental approach which as long as the money rolls in will continue. Only a rejection of the concept of Lions tours will kill off these tours. Secondly, i would have to be convinced that the Lions mess up the ranking list, i don't. In a professional game everything needs to account for its contribution, pro and con. Ask yourself why and work out why it is that the SH big three have stopped touring If the temptation is huge for a player to commit to the Lions than that shows the relevance of the concept, be it financial or honours, what ever floats a players boat.

If its supported by the players, supported by the media and enough of the fan base then it will continue to generate the finance to support it. Long may it continue. The point being mine or your opinions are but a grain of sand on the beach. You dont support it, i do.

On the opinion that the Lions tours are supported and liked by the large majority of rugby fans we both agree. If someone told me that the Lions tours are unpopular and financially unviable 'I'd say they were talking rubbish and I'd use the same evidence and facts that you use.
BUT
On the opinion that the Lions tours are not beneficial and can even be harmful to the rugby of the 4 home nations then the opinion is based on the consequences for rugby and has nothing to do with how much fans and players enjoy them. As I've said before so far I've not seen evidence from anyone to show that Lions tours are a net positive contribution. Perhaps you'll be the first.


Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:14 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
We are very weak at 6 and 8. With Faletau out then Moriarity is the starting 8 but that means no Moriarity at 6, no Warburton at 6 so Shingler is the only real option with out going back to Lydiate who doesn't fit the new expansive game plan
I see the Wales online are discussing Sam Moore at Sale (son of Steve Moore and nephew of Andy Moore) who is Cardiff born but grown up in the Ingerland youth teams but I feel the new selection policy really discourages players in his boat from choosing Wales as we are telling him that we will pick him until the end of his current contract then force him to leave the Premiership and join the Pro 14 where there is less opportunity to earn big bucks.


Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
eog wrote:
Blindside wrote:

The results of the Lions may be irrelevant to world rugby rankings, so what :dontknow: Why burden already over played players and add extra risk of injuries and delayed surgery. We've covered all this earlier this year.Firstly id have to to care more about the rankings than anything else, i don't! New Zealand Australia and South Africa have stopped touring. That's because they have a professional approach to rugby. The home nations are stuck in a sentimental approach which as long as the money rolls in will continue. Only a rejection of the concept of Lions tours will kill off these tours. Secondly, i would have to be convinced that the Lions mess up the ranking list, i don't. In a professional game everything needs to account for its contribution, pro and con. Ask yourself why and work out why it is that the SH big three have stopped touring If the temptation is huge for a player to commit to the Lions than that shows the relevance of the concept, be it financial or honours, what ever floats a players boat.

If its supported by the players, supported by the media and enough of the fan base then it will continue to generate the finance to support it. Long may it continue. The point being mine or your opinions are but a grain of sand on the beach. You dont support it, i do.

On the opinion that the Lions tours are supported and liked by the large majority of rugby fans we both agree. If someone told me that the Lions tours are unpopular and financially unviable 'I'd say they were talking rubbish and I'd use the same evidence and facts that you use.
BUT
On the opinion that the Lions tours are not beneficial and can even be harmful to the rugby of the 4 home nations then the opinion is based on the consequences for rugby and has nothing to do with how much fans and players enjoy them. As I've said before so far I've not seen evidence from anyone to show that Lions tours are a net positive contribution. Perhaps you'll be the first.


I would agree that the Lions are not without their risks to the home nations. Not least the lack of coaching we have had for the last two tours. Invariably there is also the big risk of injury during the tours. However, there is a financial benefit directly from the tours (I think around £80k per player) to the unions (hence the conspiracy about the Welsh players being picked from the Wales squad touring Australia).

I would also argue that the revenue and coverage from the Lions keeps rugby as a key sport. It raises the prestige of the game. It is hard to demonstrate this but the benefits of a Lions tour includes increased interest in the whole game.

Whether the current format of the Lions is compatible with the modern game is the key question. Personally I think the clubs should play fewer matches but appreciate the counter arguments.


Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:53 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
Lets get things into perspective ref Lions tours ...

It is only comparatively recently after Pro Rugby that the Unions make a significant profit from the Lions Tours.
It is the N Hemp PLAYERS that benefit most (see first reference)

For Union benefit they are paid for release of players (see first reference eg Sco get a lot less than others)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/ ... land-tour/

It is THE RECEIVING COUNTRY that gets the big benefit..

Last Accounts NZRFU made a significant loss but outlooked a profit in their next accounts, no wonder ..

Outlooked profit will be in the Region of 30m

see the Trew comment etc

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... r-nz-rugby

Just to provide some true perspective to some comments ;)

The Season is excessive and W Cups, Lions Tours and AI provide significant revenue.

Examples above give perspective of players benefits!

N Hemp Unions generally return good bottom line.

South Hemp countries more vulnerable and a cut in games and more reasonable timetable will hurt.

One will have to consider how the Lions Tours fit because of the exceptionable take on Players in what should be their holiday close Season.

Close season tours should, imo, take a different flavour to better develop home players in development countries who truly need the assocted revenue.

Players should also realise that they cant have the penny and the bun ... crying about player fatigue but willing takers of excessive payments too?

Just a view, a little tngential maybe but, nevertheless, worthwhile taking into account.

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Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:15 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
The Abominable Dr. Phibes wrote:
The WRU should pay 100% of his wages, not sure what Cardiff are getting out of it.

They did, but Cardiff had a tantrum and said they wouldn't play him any more.

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Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:50 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
Cymru am byth wrote:

I would agree that the Lions are not without their risks to the home nations. Not least the lack of coaching we have had for the last two tours. Invariably there is also the big risk of injury during the tours. However, there is a financial benefit directly from the tours (I think around £80k per player) to the unions (hence the conspiracy about the Welsh players being picked from the Wales squad touring Australia). Lions tours payments to the WRU help detract from the lack of business acumen they have.

I would also argue that the revenue and coverage from the Lions keeps rugby as a key sport. It raises the prestige of the game. It is hard to demonstrate this but the benefits of a Lions tour includes increased interest in the whole game. I agree and historically Ireland and Scotland especially benefitted from this press and Radio and TV coverage. With the World cup and a 6nations that has a much higher media profile (due to increased interest in England based on their national team and premirship clubs performances) a once every four years Lions tour contributes a lot less to rugby's profile than it once did

Whether the current format of the Lions is compatible with the modern game is the key question. Personally I think the clubs should play fewer matches but appreciate the counter arguments.

Something has got to give. I'd prefer it to be at both ends of the professional game - less club games and less internationals. To me the Lions is of least benefit to the 4 countries involved so that's the obvious bit to cut.


Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
Tony Panties wrote:

Close season tours should, imo, take a different flavour to better develop home players in development countries who truly need the assocted revenue.

Good points and regarding the in particular the one above.
Lions tours with equal numbers of developing and a couple of retired from international rugby marque players from each of the 4 countries going on tours to Europe, the Ameicas, Africa and Asia Pacific (excluding SH big 3). Would tick all the boxes for me.
However the current mindst of of fans would mean that they would not be financially viable. So won't happen unless there's a paradigm shift in how we fans get our rugby thrills.


Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:10 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
eog wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:

I would agree that the Lions are not without their risks to the home nations. Not least the lack of coaching we have had for the last two tours. Invariably there is also the big risk of injury during the tours. However, there is a financial benefit directly from the tours (I think around £80k per player) to the unions (hence the conspiracy about the Welsh players being picked from the Wales squad touring Australia). Lions tours payments to the WRU help detract from the lack of business acumen they have.

Fair point, but it is welcome money either way.[/color]

I would also argue that the revenue and coverage from the Lions keeps rugby as a key sport. It raises the prestige of the game. It is hard to demonstrate this but the benefits of a Lions tour includes increased interest in the whole game. I agree and historically Ireland and Scotland especially benefitted from this press and Radio and TV coverage. With the World cup and a 6nations that has a much higher media profile (due to increased interest in England based on their national team and premirship clubs performances) a once every four years Lions tour contributes a lot less to rugby's profile than it once did

Whether the current format of the Lions is compatible with the modern game is the key question. Personally I think the clubs should play fewer matches but appreciate the counter arguments.

Something has got to give. I'd prefer it to be at both ends of the professional game - less club games and less internationals. To me the Lions is of least benefit to the 4 countries involved so that's the obvious bit to cut.


Completely agree that something has to give. But I dom't want to see more power in the club game. Currently, the international game still has more importance than club. But the balance is moving.

I don't think the Lions should be cut but I think that measures need to made to reduce fixture congestion.

Back to the subject point - if Warburton or similar players on a NDC was allowed to take a voluntary break from club rugby, following the Lions, I guess his game time would be about the same as if he had gone on tour. Further, although international rugby is harder than regional, surely the difference between playing 4 Autumn Interntional matches compared to 4 regional isn't that much different in terms of tiredness?

My point, The Blues, whilst currently not benefitting from the availability of Warburton right now, must get some benefit from having Warburton, Lions Captain as a player?

I think Warburton is the exception though. For every Warburton you have an Adam Jones or Shane Williams who played almost every minute of Lions without many injuries.

To clarify, is your argument essentially one of fixture congestion and injury in the modern era? Rather than a dislike of the Lions itself?


Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:29 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
Cymru am byth wrote:

Completely agree that something has to give. But I dom't want to see more power in the club game. Currently, the international game still has more importance than club. But the balance is moving.

I don't think the Lions should be cut but I think that measures need to made to reduce fixture congestion.

Back to the subject point - if Warburton or similar players on a NDC was allowed to take a voluntary break from club rugby, following the Lions, I guess his game time would be about the same as if he had gone on tour. Further, although international rugby is harder than regional, surely the difference between playing 4 Autumn Interntional matches compared to 4 regional isn't that much different in terms of tiredness? I think it would be more physically and mentally tireding if similar times on the pitch are taken into account.

My point, The Blues, whilst currently not benefitting from the availability of Warburton right now, must get some benefit from having Warburton, Lions Captain as a player? I'm sure they benefit on and off pitch from having a Lions captain on the books.

I think Warburton is the exception though. For every Warburton you have an Adam Jones or Shane Williams who played almost every minute of Lions without many injuries. It's not just injuries it's mental and physical fatigue 9also enthusiasm/motivation which is about performance rather than being fit to play or not and so much harder to measure

To clarify, is your argument essentially one of fixture congestion and injury in the modern era? Rather than a dislike of the Lions itself?

I don't dislike the Lions per se. Anyway a case for their continuation based on disliking them would be as subjective as a case based on liking them.
My opinion is that the Lions are a net dis-benefit to the rugby development of the four home countries. If how the Lions operated changed so that they were a net benefit I'd support their existence.


Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Warburton out for 6 Ns
eog wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:

Completely agree that something has to give. But I dom't want to see more power in the club game. Currently, the international game still has more importance than club. But the balance is moving.

I don't think the Lions should be cut but I think that measures need to made to reduce fixture congestion.

Back to the subject point - if Warburton or similar players on a NDC was allowed to take a voluntary break from club rugby, following the Lions, I guess his game time would be about the same as if he had gone on tour. Further, although international rugby is harder than regional, surely the difference between playing 4 Autumn Interntional matches compared to 4 regional isn't that much different in terms of tiredness? I think it would be more physically and mentally tireding if similar times on the pitch are taken into account.

My point, The Blues, whilst currently not benefitting from the availability of Warburton right now, must get some benefit from having Warburton, Lions Captain as a player? I'm sure they benefit on and off pitch from having a Lions captain on the books.

I think Warburton is the exception though. For every Warburton you have an Adam Jones or Shane Williams who played almost every minute of Lions without many injuries. It's not just injuries it's mental and physical fatigue 9also enthusiasm/motivation which is about performance rather than being fit to play or not and so much harder to measure

To clarify, is your argument essentially one of fixture congestion and injury in the modern era? Rather than a dislike of the Lions itself?

I don't dislike the Lions per se. Anyway a case for their continuation based on disliking them would be as subjective as a case based on liking them.
My opinion is that the Lions are a net dis-benefit to the rugby development of the four home countries. If how the Lions operated changed so that they were a net benefit I'd support their existence.


Fair enough.

Re the increased tiredness of the Lions vs the regional. I've no doubt that international rugby is more demanding than regional. But I would argue that the physical differences and the risks of tiredness can't be that big? I remember Warburton saying something along the lines of regional games being 70% as tough as international... on that basis perhaps 3 regional games are the equivalent to 2 international?


Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:46 pm
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