It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:54 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 413 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 28  Next
Wales v NZ Match thread 
Author Message
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:59 pm
Posts: 7164
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Blindside wrote:
Dai Yorkshire wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Dai Yorkshire wrote:
loosechange wrote:
He picked a style that the players could play or his style happened to be one the players could play :dontknow: I dont think he was originally selected for his style of play but due to his success, (with London Wasps in particular) so it may have been a lucky fit. He surrounded himself with a coaching staff he felt comfortable with, rather than known quality.

Before Gatland came along the taste of success was a very rare one against the Northern or Southern Hemisphere even in the 70's the SH results were far from great for Wales. Suppose it all depends on how one looks at it.

NZ can lose key players, yet the style of play which is based on decision making, based on circumstances is still possible due to the quality of the players, their understanding and consistency of execution of the tasks. That has as much to do with their development system as their current coaches. Gatland has never had that as coach of Wales, a second string Welsh team was lucky to beat Georgia at home, a second string English team could play fantastic rugby against Argentina away. NZ could probably pick 4 sides to put 30 points on Georgia. Gatland will ultimately take the blame for the failure of the system. Welsh rugby is a long way away from blaming itself, its structures. The Gatland argument is merely a subplot.


Lets look at the 70s 1970 against SA who were every bit as good as NZ back then.

SA6 W6

Aus0 W24 1973, 1975 Aus3 W28.

NZ19 W16 1972 1978 NZ13 W12 we have all heard about the infamous dive So hardly a disaster against the SH
He picked a style that every one could play, your saying the welsh players couldn't play any other way, yet Pivac and S Jones took the players that you believed could play no other style and transformed them, so your reasoning might not be as straight forward as you would have us believe.
We played a style of rugby in the 70s that was the envy of the world we took it to NZ with the 1971 lions, NZ embraced it we abandon it for Bish Bash and coaches from the 80s and 90s carried on with it.
Is our structure right? Of course not and never will be if we pursue Bish bash, We need the physicality to be able to stand our ground, but we need the guile that was lost to us brought back, the backs have always decided by how much.



Im not really disagreeing im just saying that there was a long wait for the success that Gatland presided over. It had been 25 years since we regularly challenged the best in the NH, we were far closer to NZ then, granted, but even in the 70s w never beat NZ.

We played an innovative style of rugby in the 70s but the side met virtually before kick off there was limited organization very limited defensive structure etc. Carwyn was probably not only one of the best coaches but one of the first true coaches.

What is missing cannot be put right by a head coach, if Wales defeat NZ Saturday it will not mean all is well in Welsh rugby.


I agree, but couldn't another coach have done as well as Gatland, there is no innovation from Gatland, what we are trying to do now has been tried before by many sides.
Yes it goes far deeper than the head coach there is no argument there and there never has been from me.

What I disagree with passionately Is the premise that we couldn't play any other way.

_________________
The main problem in marriage is that, for a man, sex is a hunger, if he is hungry and cant get to a fancy French restaurant, he'll go to a burger bar


Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:37 pm
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 12:34 am
Posts: 15241
Location: Japan
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Cymru am byth wrote:
loosechange wrote:
This AB team isn’t great, and without the old heads they panic far too much for my liking. If put under the pump they give away silly pens. The key is to keep them under the pump for 80 minutes, which isn’t easy. The Irish did it, the Lions too. The Scottish were so close, their line speed showed the world how to play, and I hope we spend the week trying to find ways to combat it, cause Wales will probably do the same.

For about 8 years a bunch of posters here have moaned about Wales style of play under Gatland and his selections. Now it seems the style is different, and he’s picked a development team(which won), and many are still up in arms. :D

I’m no fan of his, but who do you people think can come in and change the results? Does anyone even want the job? Wales has internal issues that Gatland has zero to do with, those issues were there before him, and will be there after he’s run out of town. New coach, same issues. There’s posters here who hate other regions with a passion, some hope Wales lose, and one even goes so far to hope for injuries to welsh players. It’s all a bit bizarre really.


I understand what you are saying but I think Gatland has had opportunities to play a more creative team. For a long time people were saying we needed a nore creative inside centre. We have had plenty of players who could have played second 5/8s. Whether they would have been any good or not remains to be seen but they were never tried.

Gatland said in an interview not long ago that we haven't had the players to do this. Yet, Owen Williams, they player he eventually decided to play there has been playing well in this position for a few years. Even if we only tried something different for 10 minutes. Say, bringing on a player who could play 15 10 and 12 during a match.

I appreciate that the depth is lacking but we haven't tried it.

Also, I appreciate that the problem isn't about changing our centre but it something that we seem to have taken up after another team did it first.

Fair points. As far as selections go, that’s down to WG. He might’ve got wins here or there with different selections, but the flip side is he might’ve got losses when he got wins. I can’t imagine it’s an easy job being a coach, especially test level, and especially at Wales. No matter what he does, fans will be against him.

I do think all the fans blaming him for all the problems is taking focus off Welsh rugby structures and internal bickering. If you guys want to be competitive long term, shit needs changing, whether that involves WG or not, doesn’t matter imho. It’s been obvious for years, yet these arguments are still exactly the same, with little to no changes at all where things need changing. NZ has depth and talent because of the pathways created by the NZRFU and the system that’s been in place. From grassroots and high school rugby all the way up, everyone is on the same page. From reading on here, Wales is miles behind, and that’s not even looking like changing despite everyone knowing. :scratch:
After WG is chased out, he’ll have the same complaints as those before him. A big difference is unlike a couple of kiwis who went down the Welsh route, he’ll never be the AB coach.

_________________
Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:06 am
Profile
British & Irish Lions Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 2289
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Gotta love it how people now talk about Scotland being a much better team than Wales, despite not even beating Wales for a whole decade (even in the 1970's the Wales-Scotland relationship was less one-sided than in recent years), not having won any silverware since 1999, and this year having a record loss to England, a loss to Fiji and very nearly Samoa. If Scotland can at least run the All Blacks close even with so many injuries, then I don't know why people think Wales cannot do the same.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:37 am
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 7358
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
najbritcol wrote:
Gotta love it how people now talk about Scotland being a much better team than Wales, despite not even beating Wales for a whole decade (even in the 1970's the Wales-Scotland relationship was less one-sided than in recent years), not having won any silverware since 1999, and this year having a record loss to England, a loss to Fiji and very nearly Samoa. If Scotland can at least run the All Blacks close even with so many injuries, then I don't know why people think Wales cannot do the same.


But still... their result earlier this year has little to do with the last decade and the evidence seems to be that they are better than us at the moment.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:24 am
Profile E-mail
Regional Junior Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:38 am
Posts: 144
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
najbritcol wrote:
Gotta love it how people now talk about Scotland being a much better team than Wales, despite not even beating Wales for a whole decade (even in the 1970's the Wales-Scotland relationship was less one-sided than in recent years), not having won any silverware since 1999, and this year having a record loss to England, a loss to Fiji and very nearly Samoa. If Scotland can at least run the All Blacks close even with so many injuries, then I don't know why people think Wales cannot do the same.


I agree.

However sides will rise beyond their capabilities when they play the number one team in the world to see how they rate.

That's why Wales will give us a far bigger game that the Scots.

Wales by 1.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:29 am
Profile E-mail
Regional Junior Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:38 am
Posts: 144
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Blackheart wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Gotta love it how people now talk about Scotland being a much better team than Wales, despite not even beating Wales for a whole decade (even in the 1970's the Wales-Scotland relationship was less one-sided than in recent years), not having won any silverware since 1999, and this year having a record loss to England, a loss to Fiji and very nearly Samoa. If Scotland can at least run the All Blacks close even with so many injuries, then I don't know why people think Wales cannot do the same.


I agree.

However sides will rise beyond their capabilities when they play the number one team in the world to see how they rate.

That's why Wales will give us a far bigger game that the Scots.

Wales by 1.


And you thought I was joking?


Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:37 am
Profile E-mail
thread ruining clique
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:26 pm
Posts: 18889
Location: Dinbych
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Gatland's 'limited' playing style won us two grand slams and got us to a world cup semi. The phrase 'you can't make a silk purse' springs to mind. Trouble with the offloading, expansive style is most of our players don't have the skills to be able to pull it off at international level.

_________________
I have no *fupping* idea what I'm talking about.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:54 am
Profile
World XV Player

Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:17 pm
Posts: 3393
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Spinny, that brings us back to the integral problem of those skills not being taught and instilled from an early stage, which is down to the points raised by our NZ friend.

The WRU is a self perpetuating oligarchy that will be harder to shift than Mugabe.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:21 am
Profile E-mail
thread ruining clique
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:26 pm
Posts: 18889
Location: Dinbych
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Did you see the show Alfie did where he toured NZ to find out the differences between them and us in rugby development? Was a proper eye opener. He summed it up by saying it was the schools level where NZ leave us in the dark ages.

_________________
I have no *fupping* idea what I'm talking about.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:10 am
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:42 am
Posts: 4488
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Page 5 of the match thread and its still 4 days away?

Edit
Oops soz najbritcol just got to your post saying the same thing

_________________
.
Live for ever or die trying


Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:20 pm
Profile E-mail
Regional Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:25 pm
Posts: 358
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Liam Williams and Alex Cuthbert ruled out; Tipuric OK but Lee still a doubt.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:27 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 5:40 pm
Posts: 60013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Figaro wrote:
Liam Williams and Alex Cuthbert ruled out; Tipuric OK but Lee still a doubt.


The decision to play Liam last week was idiotic. Patchell remains unused, and is clearly out of favour. He should be released, but this is the WRU and Gatland.

_________________
We are all in the gutter but me and my mam are looking at the stars!


Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:09 pm
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:57 am
Posts: 2862
Location: Barry
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
So Wales backline will most likely be:
Webb
Biggar
Amos
O Williams
S Williams
S Evans
1/2p

Replacements: G Davies, Priestland, Watkin

We'll do well to hold them under 20 points!

_________________
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

Albert Einstein


Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:10 pm
Profile YIM
British & Irish Lions Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 2289
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Amos is one of the few players who has definitely emerged with more credit over the last two weeks. Before that some people here said he wasn't even really an international!


Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:33 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:09 am
Posts: 3828
Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
spinbreath wrote:
Gatland's 'limited' playing style won us two grand slams and got us to a world cup semi. The phrase 'you can't make a silk purse' springs to mind. Trouble with the offloading, expansive style is most of our players don't have the skills to be able to pull it off at international level.


It did, but it hasn't evolved since the GS in 2012 and that was over five years ago now. The fact that he has taken two full years off in that time might explain that (along with other factors of course).


Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:56 pm
Profile E-mail
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 413 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 28  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: