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Wales v NZ Match thread 
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.



Simply not true to say that the under U20 level "done well" since its inception (around a decade) to the present. We average a 6th place finish in the U20 WC.

Until we start to accept there is a common thread running through what we do and what we achieve then we will never embrace the need for change and progress. We are what we are until we change it.

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Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:00 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Blindside wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.



Simply not true to say that the under U20 level "done well" since its inception (around a decade) to the present. We average a 6th place finish in the U20 WC.

Until we start to accept there is a common thread running through what we do and what we achieve then we will never embrace the need for change and progress. We are what we are until we change it.


Probably, the definitive answer BS, common sense that some people need to recognise? It's a fact........ Players are a product of their entire environment, from grass roots through to International and if that developmental line is flawed then the entire system logically, is also flawed and demands change? International players are made, not born, despite the best efforts of some of us Taffs to choose to believe otherwise!
I was actually in an argument not 20 minutes ago where 'Matt Morgan' was generally believed to be the finest prospect (again!) in Welsh rugby! He s NOT a Barry John or Phil Bennet but, same as on here, he's not being picked purely because he lacks size! I swear some people are self delusional to the point of no return!!
Fixing the system will take time (at it's most basic!) but change has to be made and flawed elements recognised!!

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Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:18 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
In my opinion the National Team has overachieved. We have never had more than one strong region, previously the Ospreys, lately the Scarlets. At semi pro level the situation is even worse. The fact that we can get 15 players together from such a weak base and even come close to beating the All Blacks is a pretty good achievement.


Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:50 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Evan Roberts wrote:
In my opinion the National Team has overachieved. We have never had more than one strong region, previously the Ospreys, lately the Scarlets. At semi pro level the situation is even worse. The fact that we can get 15 players together from such a weak base and even come close to beating the All Blacks is a pretty good achievement.


Yep.
Blindside said some time ago that in his view our system is closer to Scotland than the New Zealand model; even that is now starting to look like an optimistic assessment.

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Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:46 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Blindside wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.



Simply not true to say that the under U20 level "done well" since its inception (around a decade) to the present. We average a 6th place finish in the U20 WC.

Until we start to accept there is a common thread running through what we do and what we achieve then we will never embrace the need for change and progress. We are what we are until we change it.



I would qualify what I said to include that we have had some success - a couple of GS titles and a few very good WCs, which does support my point that there are talented players coming through but perhaps the lack of consistency supports yours too.


Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:06 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.


There is no way out, you are right, we are lumbered with Gatland & Co until after the world cup, they are not capable of showing us more than they already have, it will just be a case of more of the same until they do one.


Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:28 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.
If you think the above is true, name the players we have produced who are talented enough to deserve a place on the national team.

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Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:10 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
buglet wrote:
Blindside wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.



Simply not true to say that the under U20 level "done well" since its inception (around a decade) to the present. We average a 6th place finish in the U20 WC.

Until we start to accept there is a common thread running through what we do and what we achieve then we will never embrace the need for change and progress. We are what we are until we change it.



I would qualify what I said to include that we have had some success - a couple of GS titles and a few very good WCs, which does support my point that there are talented players coming through but perhaps the lack of consistency supports yours too.



To be fair its very difficult to quantify. The side that won a GS under 20s in 2016 Six Nations, came 6th in the under 20 WC. Where England went to the final. Countries treat competitions differently regards rotation of squads and who they take depending on the level of rugby they are already playing. Top players often stay with their employer.

Wales have won the Six Nations under 20s only once in its 10 year life time, Ireland once, France twice and England 6 times.

My point is that there is nothing to suggest that the senior international side is underperforming in any way, compared to the performance of the professional senior game in Wales or the development sector. So it is a strange logic to attack it, it is not meeting our expectations because under the present system the expectations are not based on reality.

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"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:26 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Thegrimriper wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.
If you think the above is true, name the players we have produced who are talented enough to deserve a place on the national team.



Is it not the case that many do not continue and if this is so, isn't that another problem?


Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:35 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Blindside wrote:
buglet wrote:
Blindside wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.



Simply not true to say that the under U20 level "done well" since its inception (around a decade) to the present. We average a 6th place finish in the U20 WC.

Until we start to accept there is a common thread running through what we do and what we achieve then we will never embrace the need for change and progress. We are what we are until we change it.



I would qualify what I said to include that we have had some success - a couple of GS titles and a few very good WCs, which does support my point that there are talented players coming through but perhaps the lack of consistency supports yours too.



To be fair its very difficult to quantify. The side that won a GS under 20s in 2016 Six Nations, came 6th in the under 20 WC. Where England went to the final. Countries treat competitions differently regards rotation of squads and who they take depending on the level of rugby they are already playing. Top players often stay with their employer.

Wales have won the Six Nations under 20s only once in its 10 year life time, Ireland once, France twice and England 6 times.

My point is that there is nothing to suggest that the senior international side is underperforming in any way, compared to the performance of the professional senior game in Wales or the development sector. So it is a strange logic to attack it, it is not meeting our expectations because under the present system the expectations are not based on reality.



Didn't we win it, or equivalent in 05?


Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Otto wrote:
Blindside wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.



Simply not true to say that the under U20 level "done well" since its inception (around a decade) to the present. We average a 6th place finish in the U20 WC.

Until we start to accept there is a common thread running through what we do and what we achieve then we will never embrace the need for change and progress. We are what we are until we change it.


Probably, the definitive answer BS, common sense that some people need to recognise? It's a fact........ Players are a product of their entire environment, from grass roots through to International and if that developmental line is flawed then the entire system logically, is also flawed and demands change? International players are made, not born, despite the best efforts of some of us Taffs to choose to believe otherwise!
I was actually in an argument not 20 minutes ago where 'Matt Morgan' was generally believed to be the finest prospect (again!) in Welsh rugby! He s NOT a Barry John or Phil Bennet but, same as on here, he's not being picked purely because he lacks size! I swear some people are self delusional to the point of no return!!
Fixing the system will take time (at it's most basic!) but change has to be made and flawed elements recognised!!


I would agree that Matthew Morgan isn't the finest prospect... but I would also argue that he isn't shit either.

Clearly he has his wealnesses but in part, playing in a team that also has a lot of weaknesses doesn't help. I would say our regional and international coaches, on the whole get the selections broadly correct - our coaches generally pick the best players.


Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:38 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
buglet wrote:
Thegrimriper wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.
If you think the above is true, name the players we have produced who are talented enough to deserve a place on the national team.



Is it not the case that many do not continue and if this is so, isn't that another problem?
That doesn't answer the question, you believe that the existing system produces talented players, who are they?

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Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:01 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Thegrimriper wrote:
buglet wrote:
Thegrimriper wrote:
buglet wrote:
The Welsh game will not effectively evolve with the current coaching team. Therefore we must be prepared to accept on-going mediocrity until at least 2019.

I still believe we produce talented players; we have done well at U20 level in the last decade or so but as many others have said, the structure is shot and any advantage we gained at the national level has now gone.

At present I do not really see a way out of it.
If you think the above is true, name the players we have produced who are talented enough to deserve a place on the national team.



Is it not the case that many do not continue and if this is so, isn't that another problem?
That doesn't answer the question, you believe that the existing system produces talented players, who are they?



It was an inference drawn from general observation of some success at youth levels; you must assume that there has to be talented players involved.. If I am brutally honest I do not follow the domestic game closely enough to know names. But my point was valid; if I cannot name them, does that not imply that they are not working their way through and as I said, isn't that a problem? It is not theonly one, but it is possibly one.


Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:04 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
Its fair to say that its possible for different coaches to get better results and performances from the same group of players, Gatland himself proved this when he took over after the Gyppocaust. He took us from also rans to Grand Slam champions within a matter of months, most fans seem to be of the opinion now that a new coaching team can do the same when Gatland is gone, problem is we have quite a wait for this to happen. But there is light at the end of the tunnel as we all know that this coaching team are all leaving. Imagine how awful it would be if they were signed up for the next 4 years.


Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:00 pm
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Post Re: Wales v NZ Match thread
1100 Olly Kohn Ireland 2 February 2013
1101 Dafydd Howells Japan 8 June 2013
1102 James King Japan 8 June 2013
1103 Emyr Phillips Japan 8 June 2013
1104 Owen Williams Japan 8 June 2013
1105 Dan Baker Japan 8 June 2013
1106 Rhys Patchell Japan 8 June 2013
1107 Andries Pretorius Japan 8 June 2013
1108 Josh Navidi Japan 15 June 2013
1109 Scott Baldwin Japan 15 June 2013

1110 Cory Allen Argentina 16 November 2013
1111 Samson Lee Argentina 16 November 2013
1112 Hallam Amos Tonga 22 November 2013
1113 Rhodri Williams Tonga 22 November 2013
1114 Jake Ball Ireland 8 February 2014
1115 Gareth Davies South Africa 14 June 2014
1116 Matthew Morgan South Africa 14 June 2014
1117 Nicky Smith Fiji 15 November 2014
1118 Rob Evans Ireland 14 March 2015
1119 Dominic Day Ireland 8 August 2015

1120 Ross Moriarty Ireland 8 August 2015
1121 Eli Walker Ireland 8 August 2015
1122 Tyler Morgan Ireland 8 August 2015
1123 Kristian Dacey Ireland 8 August 2015
1124 Gareth Anscombe Ireland 8 August 2015
1125 Tomas Francis Ireland 29 August 2015
1126 Ellis Jenkins New Zealand 11 June 2016
1127 Cory Hill Australia 5 November 2016
1128 Sam Davies Australia 5 November 2016
1129 Seb Davies Tonga 16 June 2017

1130 Thomas Young Tonga 16 June 2017
1131 Steffan Evans Tonga 16 June 2017
1132 Wyn Jones Tonga 16 June 2017
1133 Ryan Elias Tonga 16 June 2017
1134 Dillon Lewis Tonga 16 June 2017
1135 Ollie Griffiths Tonga 16 June 2017
1136 Aled Davies Tonga 16 June 2017
1137 Owen Williams Tonga 16 June 2017
1138 Rory Thornton Samoa 23 June 2017
1139 Adam Beard Samoa 23 June 2017

1140 Owen Watkin Australia 11 November 2017
1141 Leon Brown Australia 11 November 2017
1142 Sam Cross Australia 11 November 2017
1143 Elliot Dee Georgia 18 November 2017


Only a few players ...

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Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:01 am
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