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Sean O'Brien 
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
eog wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
When exactly have we won regularly against SH teams You asked what was required to gain respect my answer was beating SH teams regularly. You might hand out respect for successful 6nations campaigns but SH nations don't.
Of course we lost to other teams in the last 6N I never said that we hadn't and that omission suggested that we did well unless you think being hammered by Scotland is further evidence for us doing well.
What else could the 2 do while coaching the Lion apart from beating NZ and we have all seen their results against other sides in the RC Well Gatland pulled out Welsh players to act as tackle bags and bench warmers for the Lions. So not only did he have no involvement in the successful Wales tour but he chose to weaken it for the benefit of the Lions also!
And as for the last point

And as for your last point " We 'ad it tough in my day standin int rain on East terrace with urine cascading like Niagara downt steps, watching Wales lose to bloody Canada . We couldn't imagine dreaming of losing to England by a couple of points. Fans today don't know they're born.


In the ground 2 - 3 hrs in advance(often took as long to get out) ,worth it though for the banter, singing, silly buggers avovoiding stewrds to plant giant leaks on the centre spot, others climbing the goal posts, smell of urine on the terraces ( never wear a Gannex - Harold Wilson mac or you'll get your pockets filledwith pee, some
fainting and being passed overhead ...never sure whether they had fainted of wanted a better view down the front ?

But oh... the singing, and the humour and the bloody welshness of it ll ...few 'decoration' rosettes and programmes and some scarves.......

By today's standards and health and safety standards it was awful ( Barriers on the terraces and I was involved in a very dangerous crowd surge at the Taff end .. Wales and Scotland which could well of been tragic consequence ... but we watched a % of the match inside the fence)


but God I miss it heartfelt!

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Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:44 am
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
loosechange wrote:
Bit silly saying they'd whitewash NZ. They were ahead of NZ for a whopping 3 minutes in 3 tests I think it was.

And someone on PR posted the training schedule during the tour, and if its correct, SOB is either talking out of his arse, or hes a lazy mofo.


I don't really rate WG, but hes backed himself on 2 tours and is undefeated. That's the be all and end all when talking about his time coaching the B&ILs.


:D
Agreed.

Doesn't change the fact that Howley is crap though...

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Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:46 am
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Old Second Row wrote:
loosechange wrote:
Bit silly saying they'd whitewash NZ. They were ahead of NZ for a whopping 3 minutes in 3 tests I think it was.

And someone on PR posted the training schedule during the tour, and if its correct, SOB is either talking out of his arse, or hes a lazy mofo.


I don't really rate WG, but hes backed himself on 2 tours and is undefeated. That's the be all and end all when talking about his time coaching the B&ILs.


:D
Agreed.

Doesn't change the fact that Howley is crap though...

See, you've just done a better job at explaining how it is, without looking a tit. I bet it wasn't even that hard. :D

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Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:08 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
eog wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
When exactly have we won regularly against SH teams You asked what was required to gain respect my answer was beating SH teams regularly. You might hand out respect for successful 6nations campaigns but SH nations don't.
Of course we lost to other teams in the last 6N I never said that we hadn't and that omission suggested that we did well unless you think being hammered by Scotland is further evidence for us doing well.
What else could the 2 do while coaching the Lion apart from beating NZ and we have all seen their results against other sides in the RC Well Gatland pulled out Welsh players to act as tackle bags and bench warmers for the Lions. So not only did he have no involvement in the successful Wales tour but he chose to weaken it for the benefit of the Lions also!
And as for the last point

And as for your last point " We 'ad it tough in my day standin int rain on East terrace with urine cascading like Niagara downt steps, watching Wales lose to bloody Canada . We couldn't imagine dreaming of losing to England by a couple of points. Fans today don't know they're born.

Has anyone any clue as to the point this poster is trying to make. Eve Tonypanties' posts seem to be coherent compared to this

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Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:51 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
I think its reasonably healthy, Gatland and to a lesser extent Howley have come out of it with a great deal of credit, they achieved far more than was expected by the bookies, so they confounded the odds and the expert opinions that those odds are based on. However we have had a little insight into opinions and that is they are not universally respected as prime movers of the "success", but who would be? Eddie Jones is the high-flying coach of England i would have liked to see him have a crack, but he didnt, the man who did enhanced his reputation, with the masses, if not with the squad :dontknow: We pay our money to sky or to support sport, so why cant we be aware of opinions at the appropriate time ? After the tour is over and the dust settles.

Some think Gatland is a fantastic coach, others that he is extremely lucky. I dont think you can seriously knock his record. IMO he manages the personality within teams extremely well and people should not underestimate how important this is to results but without the results, i dont think he could manage the personalities, so hes quite lucky :) . However from a viewpoint of rugby coaching in its pure form, which is what O'Brien as criticised, i think the truth is midway between him being a great coach and a lucky one. Hes OK at the highest level and hes been lucky.

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Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Blindside wrote:
I think its reasonably healthy, Gatland and to a lesser extent Howley have come out of it with a great deal of credit, they achieved far more than was expected by the bookies, so they confounded the odds and the expert opinions that those odds are based on.

However we have had a little insight into opinions and that is they are not universally respected as prime movers of the "success", but who would be?

We pay our money to sky or to support sport, so why cant we be aware of opinions at the appropriate time ? After the tour is over and the dust settles.

Some think Gatland is a fantastic coach, others that he is extremely lucky. I dont think you can seriously knock his record.

IMO he manages the personality within teams extremely well and people should not underestimate how important this is to results but without the results, i dont think he could manage the personalities, so hes quite lucky :) .

However from a viewpoint of rugby coaching in its pure form, which is what O'Brien has criticised, I think the truth is midway between him being a great coach and a lucky one. He's OK at the highest level and he's been lucky.


The fact is that the Lions players performed well despite the crazy match schedule.

That suggests that that selection process was excellent and the rapport between the selected coaches was equally good.

As is usual practice, there will be an in-house report on all aspects of the tour of New Zealand and many players will have their say as well in years to come.

Your comment that Gatland is "okay" is less than generous. His record as Lions Head Coach is good, Blindside. Nobody has bettered it as yet.

As you said, he's come out of the tour with great credit.


Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:27 am
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Bouch wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I think its reasonably healthy, Gatland and to a lesser extent Howley have come out of it with a great deal of credit, they achieved far more than was expected by the bookies, so they confounded the odds and the expert opinions that those odds are based on.

However we have had a little insight into opinions and that is they are not universally respected as prime movers of the "success", but who would be?

We pay our money to sky or to support sport, so why cant we be aware of opinions at the appropriate time ? After the tour is over and the dust settles.

Some think Gatland is a fantastic coach, others that he is extremely lucky. I dont think you can seriously knock his record.

IMO he manages the personality within teams extremely well and people should not underestimate how important this is to results but without the results, i dont think he could manage the personalities, so hes quite lucky :) .

However from a viewpoint of rugby coaching in its pure form, which is what O'Brien has criticised, I think the truth is midway between him being a great coach and a lucky one. He's OK at the highest level and he's been lucky.


The fact is that the Lions players performed well despite the crazy match schedule.

That suggests that that selection process was excellent and the rapport between the selected coaches was equally good.

As is usual practice, there will be an in-house report on all aspects of the tour of New Zealand and many players will have their say as well in years to come.

Your comment that Gatland is "okay" is less than generous. His record as Lions Head Coach is good, Blindside. Nobody has bettered it as yet.

As you said, he's come out of the tour with great credit.


Equally though, the criticisms that SOB made are similar to those many Welsh fans have made for ages. Whether SOB has simply latched on to these ideas or formed them himself is an interesting point.

I think many top managers have an element of luck. Alex Fergusson almost got sacked, but Mark Robbins scored a goal. My point, Fergie was a great manager, but in part his long term in the role allowed him to shape the team how he wanted. His entire squad was his. There must be many great managers who don't get the chance because they are still having to use players they don't want to or use old systems...longer term managers probably get more respect and can do it their way more. Whether one manager is better than another is possibly ignoring the fact that a longer term one doesn't have to compromise. however, I counter that by saying that you can get stale.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 096520.stm


Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:58 am
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Cymru am byth wrote:
Bouch wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I think its reasonably healthy, Gatland and to a lesser extent Howley have come out of it with a great deal of credit, they achieved far more than was expected by the bookies, so they confounded the odds and the expert opinions that those odds are based on.

However we have had a little insight into opinions and that is they are not universally respected as prime movers of the "success", but who would be?

We pay our money to sky or to support sport, so why cant we be aware of opinions at the appropriate time ? After the tour is over and the dust settles.

Some think Gatland is a fantastic coach, others that he is extremely lucky. I dont think you can seriously knock his record.

IMO he manages the personality within teams extremely well and people should not underestimate how important this is to results but without the results, i dont think he could manage the personalities, so hes quite lucky :) .

However from a viewpoint of rugby coaching in its pure form, which is what O'Brien has criticised, I think the truth is midway between him being a great coach and a lucky one. He's OK at the highest level and he's been lucky.


The fact is that the Lions players performed well despite the crazy match schedule.

That suggests that that selection process was excellent and the rapport between the selected coaches was equally good.

As is usual practice, there will be an in-house report on all aspects of the tour of New Zealand and many players will have their say as well in years to come.

Your comment that Gatland is "okay" is less than generous. His record as Lions Head Coach is good, Blindside. Nobody has bettered it as yet.

As you said, he's come out of the tour with great credit.


Equally though, the criticisms that SOB made are similar to those many Welsh fans have made for ages. Whether SOB has simply latched on to these ideas or formed them himself is an interesting point.

I think many top managers have an element of luck. Alex Fergusson almost got sacked, but Mark Robbins scored a goal. My point, Fergie was a great manager, but in part his long term in the role allowed him to shape the team how he wanted. His entire squad was his. There must be many great managers who don't get the chance because they are still having to use players they don't want to or use old systems...longer term managers probably get more respect and can do it their way more. Whether one manager is better than another is possibly ignoring the fact that a longer term one doesn't have to compromise. however, I counter that by saying that you can get stale.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 096520.stm



Yes...... there is also the difference between being a manager and being a coach, Gatland is a great manager but im not sure he is a great coach.

Brian Clough was a great manager once said ""Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes”. It was said on TV at the weekend that Sexton and Farrel drove the direction of attack, if this looked like a good direction and these were the guys chiefly responsible for implementing it, then was it good coaching to let them lead it. I think it was Sean Holly who made the point and isnt that spot on ?

Tactics are important obviously, sometimes their crucial, but not always, they are usually at the forefront of training, but surprisingly less evident on the field, as the constraints of pressure and time on decisions, that need to be made as part of a chain of events impact on the game, often overpower everything other than the basic game plan. Howley is now being condemned for allowing key players in his charge influence.

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Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Tony Panties wrote:

In the ground 2 - 3 hrs in advance(often took as long to get out) ,worth it though for the banter, singing, silly buggers avovoiding stewrds to plant giant leaks on the centre spot, others climbing the goal posts, smell of urine on the terraces ( never wear a Gannex - Harold Wilson mac or you'll get your pockets filledwith pee, some
fainting and being passed overhead ...never sure whether they had fainted of wanted a better view down the front ?

But oh... the singing, and the humour and the bloody welshness of it ll ...few 'decoration' rosettes and programmes and some scarves.......

By today's standards and health and safety standards it was awful ( Barriers on the terraces and I was involved in a very dangerous crowd surge at the Taff end .. Wales and Scotland which could well of been tragic consequence ... but we watched a % of the match inside the fence)


but God I miss it heartfelt!


The pre-match runs across the pitch from the South Enclosure to the North Enclosure were good entertainment as well. The crowd firmly behind the runner but willing to applaud a good tackle by one of the stewards. It could be a bit like being in the Coliseum as if a runner had give a good account of himself before being caught and the stewards sensed the crowd thought a thumbs up was appropriate they were quite likely to let the runner into the North anyway!


Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:17 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Big And Dull wrote:
eog wrote:
blah blah blah

Has anyone any clue as to the point this poster is trying to make. Eve Tonypanties' posts seem to be coherent compared to this

I've been trying to explain that in my opinion your -everything in the garden is rosy - outlook is mistaken. It looks like I've failed maybe it's because you're big.


Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:24 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Blindside wrote:

Yes...... there is also the difference between being a manager and being a coach, Gatland is a great manager but im not sure he is a great coach.

Brian Clough was a great manager once said ""Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes”. It was said on TV at the weekend that Sexton and Farrel drove the direction of attack, if this looked like a good direction and these were the guys chiefly responsible for implementing it, then was it good coaching to let them lead it. I think it was Sean Holly who made the point and isnt that spot on ?

Tactics are important obviously, sometimes their crucial, but not always, they are usually at the forefront of training, but surprisingly less evident on the field, as the constraints of pressure and time on decisions, that need to be made as part of a chain of events impact on the game, often overpower everything other than the basic game plan. Howley is now being condemned for allowing key players in his charge influence.


Just a heads-up for you, Blindside.

Brian Clough didn't act alone.

For the greater part of his career he had an assistant/partner who was a bit useful himself.

Peter Taylor.

Have you found the reference in "With Clough" by Peter Taylor (Hardback, 1980) (£23.99 + £2.85 P&P)?

Or in "Brian Clough: Nobody Ever Says Thank You" - The Biography by Jonathan Wilson (£5.99)?

Sorry if you think I'm deliberately telling you something you already know.

Not my intention.


Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:47 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
eog wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
eog wrote:
blah blah blah

Has anyone any clue as to the point this poster is trying to make. Eve Tonypanties' posts seem to be coherent compared to this

I've been trying to explain that in my opinion your -everything in the garden is rosy - outlook is mistaken. It looks like I've failed maybe it's because you're big.

I don't think everything is rosy, not by a long way, neither, internationally at least, is it the mess some people like to make out

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Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:35 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
I seem to remember that Ferguson inherited a wonderful youth side that contained all 'his' top players, Giggs, Scholes, Beckham etc etc. brought to Manchester United by the Youth Team coach whose name escapes me. I think I might have stood a chance with that lot playing for me.
It reinforces the Peter Taylor point, it was someone else that gave Clough and Ferguson the wonder players.


Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:21 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Cymru am byth wrote:
Bouch wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I think its reasonably healthy, Gatland and to a lesser extent Howley have come out of it with a great deal of credit, they achieved far more than was expected by the bookies, so they confounded the odds and the expert opinions that those odds are based on.

However we have had a little insight into opinions and that is they are not universally respected as prime movers of the "success", but who would be?

We pay our money to sky or to support sport, so why cant we be aware of opinions at the appropriate time ? After the tour is over and the dust settles.

Some think Gatland is a fantastic coach, others that he is extremely lucky. I dont think you can seriously knock his record.

IMO he manages the personality within teams extremely well and people should not underestimate how important this is to results but without the results, i dont think he could manage the personalities, so hes quite lucky :) .

However from a viewpoint of rugby coaching in its pure form, which is what O'Brien has criticised, I think the truth is midway between him being a great coach and a lucky one. He's OK at the highest level and he's been lucky.


The fact is that the Lions players performed well despite the crazy match schedule.

That suggests that that selection process was excellent and the rapport between the selected coaches was equally good.

As is usual practice, there will be an in-house report on all aspects of the tour of New Zealand and many players will have their say as well in years to come.

Your comment that Gatland is "okay" is less than generous. His record as Lions Head Coach is good, Blindside. Nobody has bettered it as yet.

As you said, he's come out of the tour with great credit.


Equally though, the criticisms that SOB made are similar to those many Welsh fans have made for ages. Whether SOB has simply latched on to these ideas or formed them himself is an interesting point.

I think many top managers have an element of luck. Alex Fergusson almost got sacked, but Mark Robbins scored a goal. My point, Fergie was a great manager, but in part his long term in the role allowed him to shape the team how he wanted. His entire squad was his. There must be many great managers who don't get the chance because they are still having to use players they don't want to or use old systems...longer term managers probably get more respect and can do it their way more. Whether one manager is better than another is possibly ignoring the fact that a longer term one doesn't have to compromise. however, I counter that by saying that you can get stale.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 096520.stm


Please don't use the arguments the Welsh fans say, ffs every time the coaches are swayed by the fans it all goes to mush. For example the selection of Scott Williams in place of Jamie Roberts, complete fail, and as for the infamous fans call for Y Gar, we know how that worked. By all means let's have Message boards where we can talk shit, but let's hope that no one who is anywhere near making a decision, ever pays any attention to them.


Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:01 pm
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Post Re: Sean O'Brien
Cymru am byth wrote:
Bouch wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I think its reasonably healthy, Gatland and to a lesser extent Howley have come out of it with a great deal of credit, they achieved far more than was expected by the bookies, so they confounded the odds and the expert opinions that those odds are based on.

However we have had a little insight into opinions and that is they are not universally respected as prime movers of the "success", but who would be?

We pay our money to sky or to support sport, so why cant we be aware of opinions at the appropriate time ? After the tour is over and the dust settles.

Some think Gatland is a fantastic coach, others that he is extremely lucky. I dont think you can seriously knock his record.

IMO he manages the personality within teams extremely well and people should not underestimate how important this is to results but without the results, i dont think he could manage the personalities, so hes quite lucky :) .

However from a viewpoint of rugby coaching in its pure form, which is what O'Brien has criticised, I think the truth is midway between him being a great coach and a lucky one. He's OK at the highest level and he's been lucky.


The fact is that the Lions players performed well despite the crazy match schedule.

That suggests that that selection process was excellent and the rapport between the selected coaches was equally good.

As is usual practice, there will be an in-house report on all aspects of the tour of New Zealand and many players will have their say as well in years to come.

Your comment that Gatland is "okay" is less than generous. His record as Lions Head Coach is good, Blindside. Nobody has bettered it as yet.

As you said, he's come out of the tour with great credit.


Equally though, the criticisms that SOB made are similar to those many Welsh fans have made for ages. Whether SOB has simply latched on to these ideas or formed them himself is an interesting point.

I think many top managers have an element of luck. Alex Fergusson almost got sacked, but Mark Robbins scored a goal. My point, Fergie was a great manager, but in part his long term in the role allowed him to shape the team how he wanted. His entire squad was his. There must be many great managers who don't get the chance because they are still having to use players they don't want to or use old systems...longer term managers probably get more respect and can do it their way more. Whether one manager is better than another is possibly ignoring the fact that a longer term one doesn't have to compromise. however, I counter that by saying that you can get stale.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 096520.stm


Please don't use the arguments the Welsh fans say, ffs every time the coaches are swayed by the fans it all goes to mush. For example the selection of Scott Williams in place of Jamie Roberts, complete fail, and as for the infamous fans call for Y Gar, we know how that worked. By all means let's have Message boards where we can talk shit, but let's hope that no one who is anywhere near making a decision, ever pays any attention to them.


Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:01 pm
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