It is currently Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:55 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
2017 exodus of players from NZ, many 
Author Message
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:09 am
Posts: 4128
Post 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
There is a significant amount leaving, and some top footballers
Order of merit by me lol
1) Cruden
2) Faumuina
3) Fekitoa
4) Tawera Kerr Barlow
5) Steven Luatua
Huge players, in their prime, shame they are going, all could have been part of ABs moving forward
Tongan Bear Loni Ohila prop from Hurricanes (Clemont)
Suisiula Halanukonuka prop Glasgow
Patrick Osborne France
Renee Ranger France

A lot of quality there, good luck, hope you all are getting double pay and return to homelands after the bizz is done

_________________
Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:05 am
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:09 am
Posts: 4128
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Ironically for here, as some like to make a deal about it
The three props may be the most significant losses for club and country
The Tongan boys have been huge for their Super teams and Faumuina lack of successors as tight head back up and impact is significant for the ABs
Laulala and Ofa our supposed back ups were shown up against the Lions

Cruden probably has back up with Sapoaga, but at Cruden best he is the best pivot in the country
Luatua is a difficult loss, he is reaching his prime and was in the running for Kainos 6 jersey.

A lot of Pasifika boys there. We lose some every year but never makes it Easy

Piutau is one that escaped that I hope returned for a shot at a jersey next year

_________________
Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:21 am
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pm
Posts: 10460
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
There's a potential double hit imo ....although NZ have a depth of talent to backfill and develop it is also a drain on NZRFU financials.

Nearly all the big players now play gazumping cue Ben Smith et al ... their agents push the price up via threatened exit and contracts on the table and the NZRFU are paying more than they have ever had to and the prices are going up ....

In the french case although there is a process to lessen the foreign imports the Clubs are now looking for top quality with a lower percentage and will pay more.

Also the priority drive to increase the availability and access to the International squad that incites the clubs to take options on higher class imports and even abuse the foreign import reduced quotas and take the penalties to protect the increased absence.

The popularity of the Club game maintains the impetus.

_________________
ImageEasy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..


Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:45 am
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:09 am
Posts: 4128
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Sorry

_________________
Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:11 am
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:09 am
Posts: 4128
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Tony Panties wrote:
There's a potential double hit imo ....although NZ have a depth of talent to backfill and develop it is also a drain on NZRFU financials.

Nearly all the big players now play gazumping cue Ben Smith et al ... their agents push the price up via threatened exit and contracts on the table and the NZRFU are paying more than they have ever had to and the prices are going up ....

In the french case although there is a process to lessen the foreign imports the Clubs are now looking for top quality with a lower percentage and will pay more.

Also the priority drive to increase the availability and access to the International squad that incites the clubs to take options on higher class imports and even abuse the foreign import reduced quotas and take the penalties to protect the increased absence.

The popularity of the Club game maintains the impetus.

We lose some every year Tel but the average age of these mid top players is a concern. There are some school of thought here that some players are not as happy as we make out, could all be rubbish.

You never can tell is this our peak.

You could argue that by 2017 end of season:
Nonu, Cruden, Faumuina, Piutau, Luatua, TKB, could all have made a All Black touring team possibly even a Carter Fekitoa on a good day, so that ratio is increasing imo.

It's natural that this happens and until the NZRU can get more creative in a new format, Super etc, which sadly I think means breaking away from SA, and taking the lead. Trying to get more money on the table.

I think NZ can have 5 teams, Aussie 4, or 5 with more flexibibility with NZ players able to play. 1 Japan, 1 Island, possibly Argentina and why not a French team stacked with Pasific Islanders based in Tahiti. Not sure but we need to make more revenue somehow.

Medium player retention needs to be focused on for us. How long can we be dominant, not sure, I think we still are but with the NH moment of the people, i.e. Fiji, more and more kiwi Island born players will rep the NH teams.

_________________
Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:15 am
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pm
Posts: 10460
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Forrealz wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
There's a potential double hit imo ....although NZ have a depth of talent to backfill and develop it is also a drain on NZRFU financials.

Nearly all the big players now play gazumping cue Ben Smith et al ... their agents push the price up via threatened exit and contracts on the table and the NZRFU are paying more than they have ever had to and the prices are going up ....

In the french case although there is a process to lessen the foreign imports the Clubs are now looking for top quality with a lower percentage and will pay more.

Also the priority drive to increase the availability and access to the International squad that incites the clubs to take options on higher class imports and even abuse the foreign import reduced quotas and take the penalties to protect the increased absence.

The popularity of the Club game maintains the impetus.

We lose some every year Tel but the average age of these mid top players is a concern. There are some school of thought here that some players are not as happy as we make out, could all be rubbish.

You never can tell is this our peak.

You could argue that by 2017 end of season:
Nonu, Cruden, Faumuina, Piutau, Luatua, TKB, could all have made a All Black touring team possibly even a Carter Fekitoa on a good day, so that ratio is increasing imo.

It's natural that this happens and until the NZRU can get more creative in a new format, Super etc, which sadly I think means breaking away from SA, and taking the lead. Trying to get more money on the table.

I think NZ can have 5 teams, Aussie 4, or 5 with more flexibibility with NZ players able to play. 1 Japan, 1 Island, possibly Argentina and why not a French team stacked with Pasific Islanders based in Tahiti. Not sure but we need to make more revenue somehow.

Medium player retention needs to be focused on for us. How long can we be dominant, not sure, I think we still are but with the NH moment of the people, i.e. Fiji, more and more kiwi Island born players will rep the NH teams.


There is another understandable factor Forrealz ..?

The game is harder and injuries are worrying especially concussions and knee injuries.

It is totally understandable that players want to ensure their family futures as best they can and offset the risk of an early career shortening.

In France weare seeing v worrying injuries to young players of truly excellent potential ... recently Itturia (2nd row) and loose head Prop Baille have had extensive injuries and they are early twenties .. not career threatening at the mo but currently v worrying for them...

Also, the news that Lambie is coming to France after a series of head injuries ..

The most worrying aspect is I'm not sure what can be done about it!!

I remember in the late 50's attending a lecture by all American College footballer and Rhodes Scholar Oxford Uni player Dawson (the player who started the torpedo throw into the lineout) .. he outlined the evolution of protection in US Football from nothing to the current monster!... and still there are injuries and we don't really want to see that repeated here!

PS In no way I am trying to condone french Club recruitment of foreigners, indeed, I am against the level of it but not the principle. N Hemp Clubs at large use it to supplement the squad, offset International absence etc

I also think that the extensive time table is the place to start and a w/wide block timetable to address it.

Hmmm...

_________________
ImageEasy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..


Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:36 pm
Profile
Club Player

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:16 pm
Posts: 240
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Think you are a bit off target by suggesting reducing/ending SA teams and bigging-up the Aussies. The RU game in Oz is slowly but surely dying, losing money/support and becoming the increasingly poor relation to other sports. At least there is more popular support in SA - at least for the moment but that too will change in time - to maintain a healthy and competative rivalry between the two countries.

Argentina and the PI's are red herrings as neither, even at full strength which is unlikely, would live with a NZ/AB team so no money spinner there. The big money is in France and England so you cannot blame players who want to maximise their earnings for flocking where the money is even at the expense of sacrificing their chance of an International career.

The tide is turning. England and France have the population, infrastructure, income and potential to become the World 1 & 2 with the rest of us playing catch-up so I can't help feeling that NZ (and others) will find it increasingly difficult to hang on to their best players in the future. Money talks and the cachet of being an 'International' does not compare to a salary/contract abroad worth many times what could be earned at home in the real world. The crowds are in England & France so there is also the added attraction of playing to full houses every week to take into account. The recent all-NZ semi-final game was not even sold out. But the rich French/English teams are no longer prepared to pay big money to aged ex-AB's past their sell-by-date but instead will look to attract the younger, hungrier, players on longer term contacts to get their money's worth.

No, sorry, but I can't see NZ's dominance enduring despite the fact they have the best players and the best set-up in World rugby - economics are against it unfortunately.


Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:43 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:09 am
Posts: 4128
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
I'm not sure whether the concussion epidemic is because bigger faster etc, or just more knowledge and caution.
We have had McCaw and Keiron Reid with at least 2 concessions a year 2011-2015.
Fekitoa has had a few concussions, and now they get taken off if they look like they had and at times unless you go back to the replay, you wouldn't notice. Naholo in test 2 was a classic, you didn't teally notice but in the replay you see his eyes roll back. Back in the day he would have had some water then back into it.

The Super rugby situation is very crucial and getting close to crisis imo. I know Aussie are in a bind, but I think NZ is the answer, possibly the only savior for them. We need to boulster their teams and try and help dig them out. That's what I think anyways.

Prob what I say about SA rugby isn't pc, but they people running SA rugby for the last few years are the ones that demanded 6 teams, because of race etc quota, when in reality there bottom teams have always struggled even at 4 teams they struggled to be competitive with all nz teams and then they demanded 6. Then the zone where two SA teams are guaranteed finals at home. The table this year and points show how silly this was. And now SA are sending teams north. Imho, they are the ones who have stuffed this comp.

Argentina and the Islands and Japan. I'm afraid we are how you say is it a conundrum, we have to assist but it weakens the comp.

We need to take the lead I think and try and get big money invested in our brand, we are stuffed with isolation and now SA wanting more and more even though their strength is still ok. E.g., even before quota and amount in NH, they still struggled with all teams in our comp. they demanded to have equal teams or more than NZ When performances didn't equate to this.

Yep we will lose more, we have for years we lose hundreds to league, nrl clubs go to all NZ age group rugby comps and take many away. Money in the NH seems way ahead, we can pay big money for 23 players but after that, you would think money is at least twice ours for players.

I'd love to know what Faumuina and Cruden get now for ABs and what their new clubs are paying them.

I hear ya Donkka but until we are toppled, we will fight the title Holders belt, but yep are we Mohamed in the early 80's or the future Klitscho vrs Fury. We still have the belt though, just some would say :D

I disagree with other kiwi posters, we will start to lose games on the AIs more regularly. We can't keep going undefeated (or close too for another generation)

The loss of leaders like Carter, McCaw, Thorn, Nonu, Smith, Mealamu is evident. So far the new leaders Retallic, Read, Coles, Ben Smith, SBWs, A Smith etc haven't quite got it right...hopefully for us just a transition. :thumbup:

_________________
Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:04 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:37 pm
Posts: 10460
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
[quote="Forrealz"]I'm not sure whether the concussion epidemic is because bigger faster etc, or just more knowledge and caution.
We have had McCaw and Keiron Reid with at least 2 concessions a year 2011-2015.
Fekitoa has had a few concussions, and now they get taken off if they look like they had and at times unless you go back to the replay, you wouldn't notice. Naholo in test 2 was a classic, you didn't teally notice but in the replay you see his eyes roll back. Back in the day he would have had some water then back into it.

quote]

Irrespective the current vein can, sensibly, suspend players or even end their careers.

_________________
ImageEasy to consider past and present, it's the future and associated plan and strategy to achieve that takes the talent ..


Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:40 pm
Profile
Club Player

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:16 pm
Posts: 240
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Don't worry too much Forrealz. Whilst NZ rugby dominance will be challenged it's still head and shoulders above anything else in this World and it sure as hell won't go down without one hellva fight.

The quota system in SA will do for them, Oz will slowly sink, the game in Argentina, Japan and the PI's will be peripheral at best so NZ's best chance of healthy economic survival is to align with the NH. You can probably never join the 6N due to the time/distance/cost but the AI's and a return to the old-fashioned tour of the UK every 2/3 years will not only put your finances in the black but also end any notion of isolationism.


Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:14 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 12:34 am
Posts: 15043
Location: Japan
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Blimey. All this doom and gloom after 10 years of absolute domination.

The sky is falling.......

2 years ago the poms were dumped out of their own WC before the knock out stages, now along with the frogs (who's national team was also embarrassed in the same WC) are lining up to be number 1 & 2 on the planet. :shock: Yes, they have the money, but they always have. This alone won't equate to having the best teams, in fact I reckon part of the reason the frogs are a bit shit is because they put to much emphasis on club rugby, same could be said for the poms I guess.

And as for losing players, same same. Every year we make space for potential stars, sometimes we lose AB bench players, but rarely we lose mainstay players, and until that happens, we are good health. All those leaving this year are getting on, and are going because they can't make the starting jersey and are running out of time to make some extra coin. It'll continue probably forever.

After WCs we will lose bigger numbers and better players. After 2015 we lost half the team, it was all doom and gloom then as well, and look what happened.

_________________
Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:56 pm
Profile
British & Irish Lions Player

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm
Posts: 1948
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
I think loosechange is right. New Zealand will continue to lose players to wealthier clubs in Europe and Japan, but nowhere near at the level to harm the team and, in any case, their skills, coaching and structures are still exceptional.


Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:04 pm
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:09 am
Posts: 4128
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
Don't know where the doom and gloom and sky is falling scenario came from, ah that's right, your mate :D
These are medium concerns, the Sky is dropping at incredible rates in SA and Aussie but even that could be temporary, worry for Aussie though..big work to be done there

Just discussion

1)Concussion, its huge, Naholo, Reid, Retallic, Ngatai, Fekitoa, Coles, Ben Smith, the great McCaw all have or had Concussion issues..

2) Players leaving mid stride
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opi ... -of-exiles
Mark can be a bit ott, but some really good debate on other sites, it's happening more and more, the sky's not falling as you refer but many people are concerned, this is 2017, not a RWC cycle, and not players at end of Careers

3) Does anyone think Super rugby is great, format, Cheetahs and Kings made official last night. The whole Super rugby system is flawed (my opinion) its past it used by date, even SA are moving forward. We are left trying to save a sinking brand standing still, it needs re thunk, the sky is falling here maybe

4) its more like 12 years dominance crept for 2007 choke, all that is asked is can we continue this. Our NH AIs have been excellent, have we lost to England once and Ireland over 12 years AIs? My forcaste is that total dominance, crazy dominance wont continue at this 95 percentile win, in 2030 ish, will we have lost 2 AIs in all that time? You'd be a brave man to take that gamble. By 2030 I think Wales will have beaten us once, France, England could catch us up as above, by then and Ireland up and down, surely we can't lose to Scotland. It's going to be an awesome ride.


Where's the doom and gloom, just some reality, predicted all be it. Home nations will beat us more regularly (than currently anyway) in AIs than the last 12 years. If we go 12 years with 2 loses again, that will be awesome, no worries.
Super rugby needs revamped
Concussion sucks
We are having more players, outside the first 15 leave at younger ages

The "Sky is falling" citation, pretty average author of that in my opinion

Possibly the All Blacks road at the top of the mountain will be harder to maintain moving forward, we can do it but gees it's becoming harder and World rugby looks in great shape, esp in NH atm, predictions only.....

_________________
Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:13 am
Profile E-mail
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:41 am
Posts: 5967
Location: Centurion, South Africa
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
loosechange wrote:
now along with the frogs (who's national team was also embarrassed in the same WC) are lining up to be number 1 & 2 on the planet. :shock:

Well, without going overboard, the Boks just beat the Frogs 3 nil :D

*waits patiently for a pantie to drop about tiredness, 2nd stringers, poor selections et al*

_________________
Smoda sees you doing odd things


Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:01 am
Profile
World XV Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:09 am
Posts: 4128
Post Re: 2017 exodus of players from NZ, many
TheSmurf wrote:
loosechange wrote:
now along with the frogs (who's national team was also embarrassed in the same WC) are lining up to be number 1 & 2 on the planet. :shock:

Well, without going overboard, the Boks just beat the Frogs 3 nil :D

*waits patiently for a pantie to drop about tiredness, 2nd stringers, poor selections et al*

Unlike SA were the horse has bolted, re players in NH clubs, we have our still in cages. But I think SA are doing a great job, with all the baggage, to look into NH, and also get top players back for tests, quota inhibited in all.

SA seem to be doing a Brazil, with players returning, and also broadening there empire using their medium high strike power.

We are sitting hoping what we have always done will continue, which I hope it will, but SA are bolting and Aussie crumbling at club level.

_________________
Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:19 am
Profile E-mail
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: