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Gats and Co 
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Post Re: Gats and Co
najbritcol wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Blindside wrote:

There is nothing in the development structure or the under 20 results that would say we could be any better than we have been.


Funny how things look different from others' perspective.
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/blacks-north ... gby-360991


Yes I do get annoyed when people both on this forum and Wales Online claim that Irish rugby is much superior to Welsh rugby. A possible explanation for the paradox of why, over the last decade, Ireland has generally done better at club level but Wales at international level, is that a first-string Wales is still (arguably) better than a first-string Ireland, but a second-string Wales is definitely weaker than a second-string Ireland. Therefore, on the one hand injuries impact on Wales more than Ireland at international level, while on the other Ireland has more players who, though not great at international level, are formidable at provincial level and thus contribute to them winning the Pro 12 and Europe often. Anyway, here is a comparison of Welsh and Irish performances in the Junior World Cup since it was created in 2008:

Wales

4th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 7th, 6th, 7th, 7th.
AVERAGE RANK: 6th

Ireland

9th, 8th, 9th, 8th, 5th, 8th, 4th, 7th, 2nd, 9th.
AVERAGE RANK: 7th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rug ... ng_nations

Is their infighting superior to your infighting?

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Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:14 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
najbritcol wrote:
It should also be noted that Wales were the very first team to beat New Zealand in the Junior World Championship back in 2012.


And it should be noted in the same year they then got annihilated by NZ 30-6 in the semi final. Having said that Wales did have a good new generation coming through around about that time that has not been fully utilized. Gatland was great shaking things up when he first arrived but has become conservative and unwilling to change his favourites.

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Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Troron wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
It should also be noted that Wales were the very first team to beat New Zealand in the Junior World Championship back in 2012.


And it should be noted in the same year they then got annihilated by NZ 30-6 in the semi final. Having said that Wales did have a good new generation coming through around about that time that has not been fully utilized. Gatland was great shaking things up when he first arrived but has become conservative and unwilling to change his favourites.


The U-20s battered their Kiwi counterparts when the weather was a bit rough. Our pack was good that day and the halfbacks went well as well.

Once the monsoon relented, Wales were far more vulnerable.

Hmmmm.


Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:48 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Although Wales may have better starting 15 than Ireland and have done better than them in recent years, the poor second 15 dpes suggest that all is not rosy. It indicates to me that the coaching at the top is better and that our favoured 15 are picked to the detriment of those below it. Gatland understandibly has his favourite team and knows that playing the same in each match is the reason for this.

It seems too much of a coincidence that our best starting 15 are so much better than those behind them.


Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:21 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
We have coaches who are afraid to pick youngsters (and not so youngsters - James Davies stand up) either because they think they're not up to it, not ready for it or just too gobby - James, again. When they eventually do pick them they seem to dump them after just a game or two if they don't excel.

The recent tour to Tonga & Samoa was, despite misgivings about the expected ferocious tackling, an opportunity lost I feel although McBryde was forced to blood some youngsters, and they did OK.

We won't progress unless the younger fringe members of the squad are given a fair opportunity to show what they can do and Gatland/Howley/McBryde should see this and hopefully accept that some of the old stagers, their favourites, are now well past their sell by date.


Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:45 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Rugby players are active professionally for about 15 years. Even now, we still have a handful of players still active who cut their professional teeth in the pre-regional era (e.g. Henson, Gethin Jenkins), and many of our older players will at least have started developing as youngsters before the regions were even there.

Assuming the development of a player as a youth takes 7 years, if you change the development pathway, it will take 7 years for players to emerge who have been trained entirely within the new system, and 22 years before the last players trained under the old system fully retire.

What I'm trying to say is that you can't change the development pathway and expect instant results, or even results within 3-4 years. It will take some time for things to filter through.

I think the future actually is quite bright. The Scarlets have just won the Pro12 with a significant contribution from young, Welsh players. The Blues also have a very promising crop of youngsters. A good crop of the U20s who got a grand slam a couple of years ago got their first Wales caps over the summer, and beat Samoa in Samoa - something our first XV has failed to do in the past.

That other countries gaze enviously at our development pathway does seem to suggest that, just possibly, it might not all be doom and gloom...


Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:54 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Ewloe wrote:
If Gats and Howley have now been found innocent as charged, and if we now have 11 of the top world players and if our national side is as motivated when playing England etc as our Lions were against NZ, then who caused this national side to play as badly as Wales have this last few years?

11 top world players? Whats the criteria for this? Top 15? Top 30? Top 60? Top 100? If An Englishman a Frenchman a Saffer and an Aussie were to sit down and pick a World 1st and 2nd xv how many Welsh players, if any, would be in it ?

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Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Donkka wrote:
We have coaches who are afraid to pick youngsters (and not so youngsters - James Davies stand up) either because they think they're not up to it, not ready for it or just too gobby - James, again. When they eventually do pick them they seem to dump them after just a game or two if they don't excel.

The recent tour to Tonga & Samoa was, despite misgivings about the expected ferocious tackling, an opportunity lost I feel although McBryde was forced to blood some youngsters, and they did OK.

We won't progress unless the younger fringe members of the squad are given a fair opportunity to show what they can do and Gatland/Howley/McBryde should see this and hopefully accept that some of the old stagers, their favourites, are now well past their sell by date.


To be fair, in reference to the bold. Surely those are legimtate resons for not picking a player?


Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:06 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Big And Dull wrote:
eog wrote:
Yes the state of Welsh rugby isn't great but I posed the question because you said -
"There is nothing in the development structure or the under 20 results that would say we could be any better than we have been."

I don't think World Cup challengers is a realistic prospect either whoever the coach is but we now seem to agree that Gatland isn't a coach that some insist gets the maximum out of the playing resources available to him. Who is available who might is another matter though.

You seem to be saying you have no idea who you want to coach Wales as long as it's not WG, how odd. What I'm saying is that those who say Wales can't do any better than being coached by Gatland are wrong Surely the best way forward would be for WG to stay till the next RWC but in the last year bring on his successor to spend time in the International setup to try and get some continuity. I think continuity is the problem not the solution Though this is the WRU we are talking about and this would require a bit of forward thinking
The mistake was that the WRU planned too far forward giving Gatland a contract that's practically permanent although effectively only part time given his chronic absenteeism.


Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:52 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
eog wrote:
The mistake was that the WRU planned too far forward giving Gatland a contract that's practically permanent although effectively only part time given his chronic absenteeism.


Er, the contract ends inside 30 months.


Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
eog wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
eog wrote:
Yes the state of Welsh rugby isn't great but I posed the question because you said -
"There is nothing in the development structure or the under 20 results that would say we could be any better than we have been."

I don't think World Cup challengers is a realistic prospect either whoever the coach is but we now seem to agree that Gatland isn't a coach that some insist gets the maximum out of the playing resources available to him. Who is available who might is another matter though.

What I'm saying is that those who say Wales can't do any better than being coached by Gatland are wrong
The mistake was that the WRU planned too far forward giving Gatland a contract that's practically permanent although effectively only part time given his chronic absenteeism.

Throw some names into the mix who were available at the time and could do better than WG
And as far as the "chronic absenteeism" hyperbole, that just makes you look silly

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Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:35 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
a quick job description for those who might replace gatland. it would nice if the applicants had some of these achievements on their CV.

Minimum:
- Broad range of coaching, in 3 different Tier 1 countries. Domestic success in 2 of those countries a minimum. examples might include back to back league titles and cup winner.
- Previous international experience
Preferable:
- cross border club success e.g. European challenge cup and European cup success.
- international success e.g. runner up international tournament


Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:53 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Cymru am byth wrote:
Donkka wrote:
We have coaches who are afraid to pick youngsters (and not so youngsters - James Davies stand up) either because they think they're not up to it, not ready for it or just too gobby - James, again. When they eventually do pick them they seem to dump them after just a game or two if they don't excel.

The recent tour to Tonga & Samoa was, despite misgivings about the expected ferocious tackling, an opportunity lost I feel although McBryde was forced to blood some youngsters, and they did OK.

We won't progress unless the younger fringe members of the squad are given a fair opportunity to show what they can do and Gatland/Howley/McBryde should see this and hopefully accept that some of the old stagers, their favourites, are now well past their sell by date.


To be fair, in reference to the bold. Surely those are legimtate resons for not picking a player?


My point is that the coaching triumvirate THINK they may not be ready. There's only one way to really find out and that's to play them, a la Eddie Jones. The exception being James Davies who will never wear a Welsh jersey while Gatland and his boys are in power.


Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:31 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Donkka wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
Donkka wrote:
We have coaches who are afraid to pick youngsters (and not so youngsters - James Davies stand up) either because they think they're not up to it, not ready for it or just too gobby - James, again. When they eventually do pick them they seem to dump them after just a game or two if they don't excel.

The recent tour to Tonga & Samoa was, despite misgivings about the expected ferocious tackling, an opportunity lost I feel although McBryde was forced to blood some youngsters, and they did OK.

We won't progress unless the younger fringe members of the squad are given a fair opportunity to show what they can do and Gatland/Howley/McBryde should see this and hopefully accept that some of the old stagers, their favourites, are now well past their sell by date.


To be fair, in reference to the bold. Surely those are legimtate resons for not picking a player?


My point is that the coaching triumvirate THINK they may not be ready. There's only one way to really find out and that's to play them, a la Eddie Jones. The exception being James Davies who will never wear a Welsh jersey while Gatland and his boys are in power.


I understand what you are saying but the coaches have to make a decision. In their opinion they are picking the best team and chosing the young players that they think are ready. The problem is that many aren't ready becaus the regions aren't good enough.


Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:40 pm
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Post Re: Gats and Co
Any player who was closely involved in drawing a series with the All Blacks in NZ can fairly claim to be pretty good - top class even?


Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:45 pm
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