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Lions Ratings 
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Four More Years wrote:
Bouch wrote:
17 May 2017 - A Leeds rugby club have paid tribute to Gareth Puttock who has died.
26 Apr 2017 - A female rugby player has collapsed and died after suffering a head injury during training.
26 Apr 2017 - Rugby player died after hitting opponent's knee ....

Dai, you need to reset your parameters - so does the referee who gave the All Blacks a helping hand to mess up the #9's game ......

Mind you, I'm pissed off with the Lions for allowing the interference in the first place.

;)


There's this thing in our game called tackling. You dive towards someone's legs in the process. If you don't want this in our game you should change sports.

The ref gave no one a helping hand - that's just your typical ref whinge. Murray utterly telegraphs his box kicks by extending a leg back behind him each time he's going to do it - watch a tape. Any forward would be an idiot to not try and charge him down.

The ABs didn't receive help from the ref, he was down the line. The ABs played better.

Its actually quite insulting to bring up all that.

have a look at highlights of career cheap shots on McCaw and Carter, or even the lift of SBWs in the game, I don't think anyone has even mentioned the lift, cause it was all OK in most our eyes, and poor little Murray gets a push, please don't bring up the other stuff, bad taste I reccon.

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:17 am
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Forrealz wrote:
have a look at highlights of career cheap shots on McCaw and Carter, or even the lift of SBWs in the game, I don't think anyone has even mentioned the lift, cause it was all OK in most our eyes, and poor little Murray gets a push, please don't bring up the other stuff, bad taste I reckon.


It's hardly bad taste - you guys know how many people have been badly affected by blows to the head in Australian and New Zealand rugby.

Clothslining is gradually being reffed out of our game, which is good, and I was pretty much amazed at Peyper's indifference to the neck tackles in the 1st Test.

One incident saw a Lion wrench a Kiwi's neck as he dragged his target to the turf, the Lion didn't get away with it of course, a Kiwi grabbed him around the neck and twisted the Lion - who was already sitting on the floor - flat to the ground.

The 2nd Test is absolutely critical now and the neck tackle count will be more than interesting.

NZ$30 million is coming to Wellington and the Dominion Post is very happy about that - how will they react should an idiot inflict a serious injury on an opposition player?

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:04 am
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
OK I may have come in late, just thought the charging down of Murrays kicks and comparing to dirty play concussions etc.

We have several All Blacks with bad concussion issues, at least as bad as North; Ben Smith, Dane Coles, Charlie Ngatai. reid and retallic have had their issues too, Fekitoa and SBWs also.

So yep awareness of that for sure..
A push and a shove nahhhh, hope he doesn't start milking it either, just saying

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:11 am
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Forrealz wrote:
OK I may have come in late, just thought the charging down of Murrays kicks and comparing to dirty play concussions etc.

We have several All Blacks with bad concussion issues, at least as bad as North; Ben Smith, Dane Coles, Charlie Ngatai. reid and retallic have had their issues too, Fekitoa and SBWs also.

So yep awareness of that for sure..
A push and a shove nahhhh, hope he doesn't start milking it either, just saying


The phrase you hear most often nowadays is "win the collisions". When the players are all a decent amount over 100 kg, it is bound to take a toll.

I wonder how long a career at the top level will be in the future ... 2 or 3 years maybe, before they are told they have to take a step back from the physical punishment.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:24 am
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Yep esp once it starts happening a few times.
I hate it wen you see players like North, Ben Smith etc go down it sucks and cringeworthy

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:10 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Troron wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
I don't think you are reading my post properly.

I repeat yet again, Biggar is petulant, he loses his cool but I he is not someone who loses their confidence. I agree he is a conservative choice. However, he epitomises consistency. What you see is what you get. I don't necessarily say he is the better player than many other fly halves. Including Farell and Sexton. Also, for example, compare to Priestland, arguably the better player when he is doing well, but is flakey under pressure.

You asked "on what basis can Farell not deal with the pressure", I gave an example. I also add the World Cup game against Wales in 2015. I gebuinely can't think of many examples of when Biggar has had a game that he seems to lack confidence. He's had poor games, but arguably because of pressure from the opposition, not his own head.

I don't buy your comparison with Cuthbert and North. The former (for what it's worth, seemed to be getting his form back recently) suffers from a complete lack of confidence, when he is not playing well, the opposite of Biggar, the latter has arguably not recovered from his injury.


I am reading it correctly, I'm just saying I disagree that Biggar is consistent, he DOES lose his confidence as shown by when he loses his temper and starts acting like a child. If Biggar is consistent, why are Wales results all over the place and why do they keep failing to win important games in the final 15? As for the world cup, that would be the game where Farrell had 100% kicking success with 6 spot kicks and a drop goal? He was controlling the game well and it wasn't his fault there was a major defensive lapse that allowed Wales to score (Brad Barritt shot out the line).

You gave a solitary example from 4 years ago where the entire team failed and he was 21. The point wasn't to make a direct comparison to Cuthbert, it was to point out that using events from 4 years ago a basis for stating a players form now is not accurate. Jonny Wilkinson made his first start in 1998 when England suffered their largest ever defeat. 5 years later he is winning the world cup with a drop goal. You wouldn't dream of looking at Wilkinson after that and saying he couldn't handle the pressure and bringing up the defeat to the Aussies as proof, so why do you think it is valid to do this with Farrell?


You are misreading what I am saying though.

In a nutshell. Confidence and consistency doesn't necessarily equate to being a great player. I use the word 'consistent' in it's literal form, and is dependent on where you set the bar.

Biggar's play is limited. I don't rate him as an all time great. I don't buy the idea that Farrell and Sexton on recent (pre tour) form have deserved to be ahead of him.

He has lost his cool in lots of matches, including games where his team is winnjng. I don't buy that this is a result of him losing his confidence, more down the fact that (or at least gives the impression) he is a bit of a petulant twat, which in part is probably a source of his confidence.

Re the results of the final 15, again Wales have lost numerous matches at the end, with and without Biggar playing. There are too many reasons for this but I can't think this is a lack of condifence from Biggar. In part a poor mindset from our team, poor tactics but above all a better opposition. When Biggar has been outplayed, it's likely that his opposing number has been better (including Farrell). Biggar's shift however, even in matches he has lost is usually fairly consistent.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:45 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Cymru am byth wrote:
You are misreading what I am saying though.

In a nutshell. Confidence and consistency doesn't necessarily equate to being a great player. I use the word 'consistent' in it's literal form, and is dependent on where you set the bar.

Biggar's play is limited. I don't rate him as an all time great. I don't buy the idea that Farrell and Sexton on recent (pre tour) form have deserved to be ahead of him.

He has lost his cool in lots of matches, including games where his team is winnjng. I don't buy that this is a result of him losing his confidence, more down the fact that (or at least gives the impression) he is a bit of a petulant twat, which in part is probably a source of his confidence.

Re the results of the final 15, again Wales have lost numerous matches at the end, with and without Biggar playing. There are too many reasons for this but I can't think this is a lack of condifence from Biggar. In part a poor mindset from our team, poor tactics but above all a better opposition. When Biggar has been outplayed, it's likely that his opposing number has been better (including Farrell). Biggar's shift however, even in matches he has lost is usually fairly consistent.


Ok well let me clarify, I don't think Biggar is all that confident either and I think him getting rattled is a sign of his lack of confidence when things go bad, and it happens frequently. He lacks mental fortitude and starts throwing hissy fits and getting angry at those around him, including his own team. Just look at how he reacted when England scored the final try in the last 6N, immediately turns and starts venting to his team mates. Many people are petulant twats without being confident, although they can feign it. Take Trump as an example, he fakes confidence but when you scratch the surface it shows it's all a facade and he is actually incredibly insecure. People who are confident don't tend to lose it that same way, you can see teams who are confident they can win when behind will remain relatively calm and controlled, teams that aren't confident about it start trying to force things and being erratic, Biggar is definitely in the 2nd group.

Farrell has not been good this tour, neither has Sexton and Biggar probably has played the best. I just don't agree with saying Farrells failings are entirely due to him being "found out" as some are trying to peddle and making out he isn't good enough. Greig Laidlaw could be called "consistent", the point is Biggar can have a large influence in Wales playing conservatively. Biggar is consistent in that he will do the same things over and over but the results of that are anything but consistent. For example doing an up and under that you then catch and make field position from is not the same as doing an up and under that you catch and then get turned over from, even if in both cases the player successfully executed the up and under. Biggar may repeatedly manage to do things but quite often the value of him doing it is very different and, in that sense, it's an inconsistent performance.

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:01 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Troron wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
You are misreading what I am saying though.

In a nutshell. Confidence and consistency doesn't necessarily equate to being a great player. I use the word 'consistent' in it's literal form, and is dependent on where you set the bar.

Biggar's play is limited. I don't rate him as an all time great. I don't buy the idea that Farrell and Sexton on recent (pre tour) form have deserved to be ahead of him.

He has lost his cool in lots of matches, including games where his team is winnjng. I don't buy that this is a result of him losing his confidence, more down the fact that (or at least gives the impression) he is a bit of a petulant twat, which in part is probably a source of his confidence.

Re the results of the final 15, again Wales have lost numerous matches at the end, with and without Biggar playing. There are too many reasons for this but I can't think this is a lack of condifence from Biggar. In part a poor mindset from our team, poor tactics but above all a better opposition. When Biggar has been outplayed, it's likely that his opposing number has been better (including Farrell). Biggar's shift however, even in matches he has lost is usually fairly consistent.


Ok well let me clarify, I don't think Biggar is all that confident either and I think him getting rattled is a sign of his lack of confidence when things go bad, and it happens frequently. He lacks mental fortitude and starts throwing hissy fits and getting angry at those around him, including his own team. Just look at how he reacted when England scored the final try in the last 6N, immediately turns and starts venting to his team mates. Many people are petulant twats without being confident, although they can feign it. Take Trump as an example, he fakes confidence but when you scratch the surface it shows it's all a facade and he is actually incredibly insecure. People who are confident don't tend to lose it that same way, you can see teams who are confident they can win when behind will remain relatively calm and controlled, teams that aren't confident about it start trying to force things and being erratic, Biggar is definitely in the 2nd group.

Farrell has not been good this tour, neither has Sexton and Biggar probably has played the best. I just don't agree with saying Farrells failings are entirely due to him being "found out" as some are trying to peddle and making out he isn't good enough. Greig Laidlaw could be called "consistent", the point is Biggar can have a large influence in Wales playing conservatively. Biggar is consistent in that he will do the same things over and over but the results of that are anything but consistent. For example doing an up and under that you then catch and make field position from is not the same as doing an up and under that you catch and then get turned over from, even if in both cases the player successfully executed the up and under. Biggar may repeatedly manage to do things but quite often the value of him doing it is very different and, in that sense, it's an inconsistent performance.


So can we agree that Biggar is a petulant twat?


Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:04 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Troron wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
You are misreading what I am saying though.

In a nutshell. Confidence and consistency doesn't necessarily equate to being a great player. I use the word 'consistent' in it's literal form, and is dependent on where you set the bar.

Biggar's play is limited. I don't rate him as an all time great. I don't buy the idea that Farrell and Sexton on recent (pre tour) form have deserved to be ahead of him.

He has lost his cool in lots of matches, including games where his team is winnjng. I don't buy that this is a result of him losing his confidence, more down the fact that (or at least gives the impression) he is a bit of a petulant twat, which in part is probably a source of his confidence.

Re the results of the final 15, again Wales have lost numerous matches at the end, with and without Biggar playing. There are too many reasons for this but I can't think this is a lack of condifence from Biggar. In part a poor mindset from our team, poor tactics but above all a better opposition. When Biggar has been outplayed, it's likely that his opposing number has been better (including Farrell). Biggar's shift however, even in matches he has lost is usually fairly consistent.


Ok well let me clarify, I don't think Biggar is all that confident either and I think him getting rattled is a sign of his lack of confidence when things go bad, and it happens frequently. He lacks mental fortitude and starts throwing hissy fits and getting angry at those around him, including his own team. Just look at how he reacted when England scored the final try in the last 6N, immediately turns and starts venting to his team mates. Many people are petulant twats without being confident, although they can feign it. Take Trump as an example, he fakes confidence but when you scratch the surface it shows it's all a facade and he is actually incredibly insecure. People who are confident don't tend to lose it that same way, you can see teams who are confident they can win when behind will remain relatively calm and controlled, teams that aren't confident about it start trying to force things and being erratic, Biggar is definitely in the 2nd group.

Farrell has not been good this tour, neither has Sexton and Biggar probably has played the best. I just don't agree with saying Farrells failings are entirely due to him being "found out" as some are trying to peddle and making out he isn't good enough. Greig Laidlaw could be called "consistent", the point is Biggar can have a large influence in Wales playing conservatively. Biggar is consistent in that he will do the same things over and over but the results of that are anything but consistent. For example doing an up and under that you then catch and make field position from is not the same as doing an up and under that you catch and then get turned over from, even if in both cases the player successfully executed the up and under. Biggar may repeatedly manage to do things but quite often the value of him doing it is very different and, in that sense, it's an inconsistent performance.



But outcomes in an open play situation in rugby are inconsistent. Its the nature of the game. Not sure what point im making, just saying :dontknow: Biggar distribution has been better and he looks more of an attacking threat, not himself but as a facilitator, which is slightly ironic as its what he is criticized for in Wales.

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:12 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Blindside wrote:
Troron wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
You are misreading what I am saying though.

In a nutshell. Confidence and consistency doesn't necessarily equate to being a great player. I use the word 'consistent' in it's literal form, and is dependent on where you set the bar.

Biggar's play is limited. I don't rate him as an all time great. I don't buy the idea that Farrell and Sexton on recent (pre tour) form have deserved to be ahead of him.

He has lost his cool in lots of matches, including games where his team is winnjng. I don't buy that this is a result of him losing his confidence, more down the fact that (or at least gives the impression) he is a bit of a petulant twat, which in part is probably a source of his confidence.

Re the results of the final 15, again Wales have lost numerous matches at the end, with and without Biggar playing. There are too many reasons for this but I can't think this is a lack of condifence from Biggar. In part a poor mindset from our team, poor tactics but above all a better opposition. When Biggar has been outplayed, it's likely that his opposing number has been better (including Farrell). Biggar's shift however, even in matches he has lost is usually fairly consistent.




Ok well let me clarify, I don't think Biggar is all that confident either and I think him getting rattled is a sign of his lack of confidence when things go bad, and it happens frequently. He lacks mental fortitude and starts throwing hissy fits and getting angry at those around him, including his own team. Just look at how he reacted when England scored the final try in the last 6N, immediately turns and starts venting to his team mates. Many people are petulant twats without being confident, although they can feign it. Take Trump as an example, he fakes confidence but when you scratch the surface it shows it's all a facade and he is actually incredibly insecure. People who are confident don't tend to lose it that same way, you can see teams who are confident they can win when behind will remain relatively calm and controlled, teams that aren't confident about it start trying to force things and being erratic, Biggar is definitely in the 2nd group.

Farrell has not been good this tour, neither has Sexton and Biggar probably has played the best. I just don't agree with saying Farrells failings are entirely due to him being "found out" as some are trying to peddle and making out he isn't good enough. Greig Laidlaw could be called "consistent", the point is Biggar can have a large influence in Wales playing conservatively. Biggar is consistent in that he will do the same things over and over but the results of that are anything but consistent. For example doing an up and under that you then catch and make field position from is not the same as doing an up and under that you catch and then get turned over from, even if in both cases the player successfully executed the up and under. Biggar may repeatedly manage to do things but quite often the value of him doing it is very different and, in that sense, it's an inconsistent performance.



But outcomes in an open play situation in rugby are inconsistent. Its the nature of the game. Not sure what point im making, just saying :dontknow: Biggar distribution has been better and he looks more of an attacking threat, not himself but as a facilitator, which is slightly ironic as its what he is criticized for in Wales.


Can be abit ott in temperament but I'd rather someone who barks rather than being passive, Biggar also is an excellent place kicker....I havent been that much of a fan but he has impressed this tour and seems to me to have oroven to be the best all round 10 and definitely worth a place in the test squad.

Farrell had a bad game in first test but he'll stay, Biggar is more physically able than Sexton and that's key against ABs. Sexton sadly has had too many exertions, spell at Racing did for him ....

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:25 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Blindside wrote:
But outcomes in an open play situation in rugby are inconsistent. Its the nature of the game. Not sure what point im making, just saying :dontknow: Biggar distribution has been better and he looks more of an attacking threat, not himself but as a facilitator, which is slightly ironic as its what he is criticized for in Wales.


More the point of doing the same thing regardless of whether the situation merits it. A scrum half who will just box kick even if they have a huge overlap may be able to successfully pull it off a lot but it would hardly be a consistent performance as sometimes that is a good thing and sometimes it isn't. My point is that Biggar may be able to execute the same thing repeatedly but his reading of the game and deciding when it is and isn't a valid time to do it is not so good.

Anyway this is just going in circles. I think Biggar is a limited player who tends to go through the motions irrespective of what is happening in the game. I also believe Farrell is a better 10 but not doing too well on this tour because we are playing a limited attacking gameplan. I'd start Biggar just because I think he better fits how Gatland is trying to get the Lions playing.

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Troron wrote:
Blindside wrote:
But outcomes in an open play situation in rugby are inconsistent. Its the nature of the game. Not sure what point im making, just saying :dontknow: Biggar distribution has been better and he looks more of an attacking threat, not himself but as a facilitator, which is slightly ironic as its what he is criticized for in Wales.


More the point of doing the same thing regardless of whether the situation merits it. A scrum half who will just box kick even if they have a huge overlap may be able to successfully pull it off a lot but it would hardly be a consistent performance as sometimes that is a good thing and sometimes it isn't. My point is that Biggar may be able to execute the same thing repeatedly but his reading of the game and deciding when it is and isn't a valid time to do it is not so good.

Anyway this is just going in circles. I think Biggar is a limited player who tends to go through the motions irrespective of what is happening in the game. I also believe Farrell is a better 10 but not doing too well on this tour because we are playing a limited attacking gameplan. I'd start Biggar just because I think he better fits how Gatland is trying to get the Lions playing.


I think that you are saying exactly what I was.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Troron wrote:
Blindside wrote:
But outcomes in an open play situation in rugby are inconsistent. Its the nature of the game. Not sure what point im making, just saying :dontknow: Biggar distribution has been better and he looks more of an attacking threat, not himself but as a facilitator, which is slightly ironic as its what he is criticized for in Wales.


More the point of doing the same thing regardless of whether the situation merits it. A scrum half who will just box kick even if they have a huge overlap may be able to successfully pull it off a lot but it would hardly be a consistent performance as sometimes that is a good thing and sometimes it isn't. My point is that Biggar may be able to execute the same thing repeatedly but his reading of the game and deciding when it is and isn't a valid time to do it is not so good.

Anyway this is just going in circles. I think Biggar is a limited player who tends to go through the motions irrespective of what is happening in the game. I also believe Farrell is a better 10 but not doing too well on this tour because we are playing a limited attacking gameplan. I'd start Biggar just because I think he better fits how Gatland is trying to get the Lions playing.



FFS - that's exactly whay O've been saying you knob !! - and you've been disagreeing ! :D :D :D :thefinger: :thefinger:


Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:50 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
welshy34 wrote:
Troron wrote:
Blindside wrote:
But outcomes in an open play situation in rugby are inconsistent. Its the nature of the game. Not sure what point im making, just saying :dontknow: Biggar distribution has been better and he looks more of an attacking threat, not himself but as a facilitator, which is slightly ironic as its what he is criticized for in Wales.


More the point of doing the same thing regardless of whether the situation merits it. A scrum half who will just box kick even if they have a huge overlap may be able to successfully pull it off a lot but it would hardly be a consistent performance as sometimes that is a good thing and sometimes it isn't. My point is that Biggar may be able to execute the same thing repeatedly but his reading of the game and deciding when it is and isn't a valid time to do it is not so good.

Anyway this is just going in circles. I think Biggar is a limited player who tends to go through the motions irrespective of what is happening in the game. I also believe Farrell is a better 10 but not doing too well on this tour because we are playing a limited attacking gameplan. I'd start Biggar just because I think he better fits how Gatland is trying to get the Lions playing.



FFS - that's exactly whay O've been saying you knob !! - and you've been disagreeing ! :D :D :D :thefinger: :thefinger:


No he's been saying Biggar is consistent, I've been saying Biggar simply goes through the motions and does the same stuff regardless of whether it would be a good or bad decision. Consistency in rugby is not about doing the same thing over and over, it's about repeatedly making the right choices. I think often he doesn't make the right choice but simply does something because it's what he always does.

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Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:05 pm
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Post Re: Lions Ratings
Like argue with the ref instead of taking a different nuance?


Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:32 pm
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