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Wales XXIII for Summer tour. 
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Cymru am byth wrote:
tom21 wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
I would use the tour to look at some younger players with a genuine future e.g. Giles, Davies or steff Evans

As well as make some decisions about fringe players in the squad. E.g. Dacey... who outplayed "lions hopeful" Hibbard the other day.


I would be very reticent to throw a bunch of youngsters together in these tests. We have tried that many times before in the Friday night autumn matches and it hasn't worked. I would take a spine of experienced players and then work some youngsters in around them. First test team something like (presuming none are selected for the Lions):

Patchell, S Evans, S Williams, Roberts, Amos, S Davies, G Davies, R Evans, Hibbard, Francis, Ball, Thornton, Cracknell, Tipuric (c), Moriarty

Subs - Smith, Elias, Lee, B Davies, Young, A Davies, O Williams, Giles

Put Hibbard in because I think we could do with him back in the frame as a replacement for the final stages in games. Doubt it will happen though.


It's a tough call regarding the lack of experience. I agree that the Friday Autumn International game is a similar position but we need to blood new players to improve the squad. Assuming they are good enough.


Agree CAB, but I think two years out from the World Cup is not the time for a total rebuild. To be totally honest, when they are fit, our first XV is pretty much in lace for the next two years now. I think we need a bit of fine tuning at 10 and 12, but apart from that, I don't see massive change really.

I think the one area we do need to address are some of the bench options, as I think the squad needs to be stronger and that is where maybe we need to look at some of the youngsters this summer. Baldwin and Gareth Davies were poor at times in the 6N and we probably need to look at other options there (as I said above, I would bring Hibbard back into the fold) and maybe at lock as well. Maybe have a look at some of the wing options as well as Cuthbert is still struggling.


Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:00 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
tom21 wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
tom21 wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
I would use the tour to look at some younger players with a genuine future e.g. Giles, Davies or steff Evans

As well as make some decisions about fringe players in the squad. E.g. Dacey... who outplayed "lions hopeful" Hibbard the other day.


I would be very reticent to throw a bunch of youngsters together in these tests. We have tried that many times before in the Friday night autumn matches and it hasn't worked. I would take a spine of experienced players and then work some youngsters in around them. First test team something like (presuming none are selected for the Lions):

Patchell, S Evans, S Williams, Roberts, Amos, S Davies, G Davies, R Evans, Hibbard, Francis, Ball, Thornton, Cracknell, Tipuric (c), Moriarty

Subs - Smith, Elias, Lee, B Davies, Young, A Davies, O Williams, Giles

Put Hibbard in because I think we could do with him back in the frame as a replacement for the final stages in games. Doubt it will happen though.


It's a tough call regarding the lack of experience. I agree that the Friday Autumn International game is a similar position but we need to blood new players to improve the squad. Assuming they are good enough.


Agree CAB, but I think two years out from the World Cup is not the time for a total rebuild. To be totally honest, when they are fit, our first XV is pretty much in lace for the next two years now. I think we need a bit of fine tuning at 10 and 12, but apart from that, I don't see massive change really.

I think the one area we do need to address are some of the bench options, as I think the squad needs to be stronger and that is where maybe we need to look at some of the youngsters this summer. Baldwin and Gareth Davies were poor at times in the 6N and we probably need to look at other options there (as I said above, I would bring Hibbard back into the fold) and maybe at lock as well. Maybe have a look at some of the wing options as well as Cuthbert is still struggling.


Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:54 am
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
tom21 wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
tom21 wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
I would use the tour to look at some younger players with a genuine future e.g. Giles, Davies or steff Evans

As well as make some decisions about fringe players in the squad. E.g. Dacey... who outplayed "lions hopeful" Hibbard the other day.


I would be very reticent to throw a bunch of youngsters together in these tests. We have tried that many times before in the Friday night autumn matches and it hasn't worked. I would take a spine of experienced players and then work some youngsters in around them. First test team something like (presuming none are selected for the Lions):

Patchell, S Evans, S Williams, Roberts, Amos, S Davies, G Davies, R Evans, Hibbard, Francis, Ball, Thornton, Cracknell, Tipuric (c), Moriarty

Subs - Smith, Elias, Lee, B Davies, Young, A Davies, O Williams, Giles

Put Hibbard in because I think we could do with him back in the frame as a replacement for the final stages in games. Doubt it will happen though.


It's a tough call regarding the lack of experience. I agree that the Friday Autumn International game is a similar position but we need to blood new players to improve the squad. Assuming they are good enough.


Agree CAB, but I think two years out from the World Cup is not the time for a total rebuild. To be totally honest, when they are fit, our first XV is pretty much in lace for the next two years now. I think we need a bit of fine tuning at 10 and 12, but apart from that, I don't see massive change really.

I think the one area we do need to address are some of the bench options, as I think the squad needs to be stronger and that is where maybe we need to look at some of the youngsters this summer. Baldwin and Gareth Davies were poor at times in the 6N and we probably need to look at other options there (as I said above, I would bring Hibbard back into the fold) and maybe at lock as well. Maybe have a look at some of the wing options as well as Cuthbert is still struggling.


Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:54 am
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
tom21 wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
tom21 wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
I would use the tour to look at some younger players with a genuine future e.g. Giles, Davies or steff Evans

As well as make some decisions about fringe players in the squad. E.g. Dacey... who outplayed "lions hopeful" Hibbard the other day.


I would be very reticent to throw a bunch of youngsters together in these tests. We have tried that many times before in the Friday night autumn matches and it hasn't worked. I would take a spine of experienced players and then work some youngsters in around them. First test team something like (presuming none are selected for the Lions):

Patchell, S Evans, S Williams, Roberts, Amos, S Davies, G Davies, R Evans, Hibbard, Francis, Ball, Thornton, Cracknell, Tipuric (c), Moriarty

Subs - Smith, Elias, Lee, B Davies, Young, A Davies, O Williams, Giles

Put Hibbard in because I think we could do with him back in the frame as a replacement for the final stages in games. Doubt it will happen though.


It's a tough call regarding the lack of experience. I agree that the Friday Autumn International game is a similar position but we need to blood new players to improve the squad. Assuming they are good enough.


Agree CAB, but I think two years out from the World Cup is not the time for a total rebuild. To be totally honest, when they are fit, our first XV is pretty much in lace for the next two years now. I think we need a bit of fine tuning at 10 and 12, but apart from that, I don't see massive change really.

I think the one area we do need to address are some of the bench options, as I think the squad needs to be stronger and that is where maybe we need to look at some of the youngsters this summer. Baldwin and Gareth Davies were poor at times in the 6N and we probably need to look at other options there (as I said above, I would bring Hibbard back into the fold) and maybe at lock as well. Maybe have a look at some of the wing options as well as Cuthbert is still struggling.


I take what you are saying and agree. However, I'm not necessarily talking about rebuilding from scratch, more a case of trying to find options in positions we lack any sort of strength - e.g. centre.

On the other hand there are players like Cracknell, Young, Ollie Griffiths, James Davies in the back row, all putting themselves forward, yet I don't think Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau and Moriarty are really a concern. Quite the opposite.

There is no point using this to give players caps. This needs to be used with a view to development. It would be embarrasing to lose but not the end of the world.

The problem is our coach, being a temporary post, surely has a view to simply winning the series and getting a good CV... on the other hand lets say Gatland had just won the AI matches and The Six Nations... he could afford to experiment. McBryde isn't I believe to do this. Or perhaps, if Eddie Jones loses his summer tour with a young team, he has a good excuse.


Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:55 am
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Sorry. Reposted. Didn't mean to!


Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:55 am
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Cymru am byth wrote:
tom21 wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
tom21 wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
I would use the tour to look at some younger players with a genuine future e.g. Giles, Davies or steff Evans

As well as make some decisions about fringe players in the squad. E.g. Dacey... who outplayed "lions hopeful" Hibbard the other day.


I would be very reticent to throw a bunch of youngsters together in these tests. We have tried that many times before in the Friday night autumn matches and it hasn't worked. I would take a spine of experienced players and then work some youngsters in around them. First test team something like (presuming none are selected for the Lions):

Patchell, S Evans, S Williams, Roberts, Amos, S Davies, G Davies, R Evans, Hibbard, Francis, Ball, Thornton, Cracknell, Tipuric (c), Moriarty

Subs - Smith, Elias, Lee, B Davies, Young, A Davies, O Williams, Giles

Put Hibbard in because I think we could do with him back in the frame as a replacement for the final stages in games. Doubt it will happen though.


It's a tough call regarding the lack of experience. I agree that the Friday Autumn International game is a similar position but we need to blood new players to improve the squad. Assuming they are good enough.


Agree CAB, but I think two years out from the World Cup is not the time for a total rebuild. To be totally honest, when they are fit, our first XV is pretty much in lace for the next two years now. I think we need a bit of fine tuning at 10 and 12, but apart from that, I don't see massive change really.

I think the one area we do need to address are some of the bench options, as I think the squad needs to be stronger and that is where maybe we need to look at some of the youngsters this summer. Baldwin and Gareth Davies were poor at times in the 6N and we probably need to look at other options there (as I said above, I would bring Hibbard back into the fold) and maybe at lock as well. Maybe have a look at some of the wing options as well as Cuthbert is still struggling.


I take what you are saying and agree. However, I'm not necessarily talking about rebuilding from scratch, more a case of trying to find options in positions we lack any sort of strength - e.g. centre.

On the other hand there are players like Cracknell, Young, Ollie Griffiths, James Davies in the back row, all putting themselves forward, yet I don't think Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau and Moriarty are really a concern. Quite the opposite.

There is no point using this to give players caps. This needs to be used with a view to development. It would be embarrasing to lose but not the end of the world.

The problem is our coach, being a temporary post, surely has a view to simply winning the series and getting a good CV... on the other hand lets say Gatland had just won the AI matches and The Six Nations... he could afford to experiment. McBryde isn't I believe to do this. Or perhaps, if Eddie Jones loses his summer tour with a young team, he has a good excuse.


Agree with the point in bold, especially as there are so few chances now in the international calendar to experiment a bit. In terms of development and building towards the World Cup, I think this tour is very important and am therefore a bit dismayed that neither our coach or interim coach will be there. I heard Schmidt talking on the radio a few weeks ago about making himself unavailable for the Lions tour as he felt this summer was too important in terms of Ireland's preparations for the World Cup. They are touring Japan this summer, so are not only looking at the playing side of things, but also assessing facilities etc.


Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:36 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Do we have a back row to send out?

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Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:24 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
:D

Baker
King
Young
Cracknell
Davies
Navidi
Jenkins


Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:16 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Great

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Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:33 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
12 Players given to the Lions leaves us pretty thin but creates opportunities for the U20 youngsters that have done well in the last few years.
Apart from Owens our front rank is left intact, that's a plus.
In the second row the loss of Alan Wyn-Jones is a big loss, but we still have a few good ones.
However, in the loosies we are faced with an all new trio. It will be interesting to see how we go in this aspect on tour.
In the backline we've lost Web, Biggar, Foxy, Liam and GN.
Scrum halves, we have reasonably good replacements.
We are a bit skint on flyhalfs. Rhys Patchell, Sam Davies, then we struggle? Henson any takers? :D May sound silly but he could be a good help to youngsters coming through. Bristol have two sides, one with Henson and one without. The one without hasn't won a game all season. The one with Henson has been competitive and they did win one of those games. Problem with Henson is that he is injury prone.
I think we are going to see some exciting talent coming through in the centre as there are a number who could put up their hands. We still have Scott and JR plus a few good young 'uns.
The same goes for our wings but obviously none in the class of Liam and GN. Steffan Evans continues to impress and is always looking for work. His defense has improved considerably since last year.
Full back may see some belated recognition going to the likes of Dan Evans.
Sam Davies and Dan Evans let themselves down badly against Treviso, their aimless kicking was a major factor in Ospreys defeat on Italian soil.


Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:54 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Great opportunity for a couple of centers to grasp at 2 places awe are desperate for something new in.

Williams the U20 looks to the manor born but is it too early for him?

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Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:11 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Fids the Blindside wrote:
Great opportunity for a couple of centers to grasp at 2 places awe are desperate for something new in.

Williams the U20 looks to the manor born but is it too early for him?

I like the looks of Williams but he still has another year in U20 so he is very young.


Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:30 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Yeah, if it was USA or Canada he might have been worth a look but not down yon with the head hunters :D

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Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:38 pm
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
I agree that development should be the priority on this competition, but there's no point doing what we did in 2013 (throwing a bunch of uncapped players together to form a team that will never take to the field together again) as it won't tell you anything about how those players would perform as part of the Wales 1st team. We want to play with as much of the first 23 as possible to get a better idea of how the untested players might play alongside the established players. As we have 12 players off with the Lions that still leaves plenty of opportunity to try out new combinations.

Now we know who the Lions are, and assuming a 27-man squad like with Japan in 2013, I would go with

1. Smith
2. Dacey
3. Francis
4. Ball
5. Hill
6. Cracknell
7. James Davies
8. Dan Baker
9. Gareth Davies
10. Sam Davies
11. Keelan Giles
12. Owen Williams
13. Scott Williams (c)
14. Steff Evans (or swap him and Giles around, don't know which sides they are best on)
15. Rhys Patchell

16. Sam Parry
17. Rob Evans
18. Samson Lee
19. Rory Thornton
20. Ellis Jenkins
21. Tomos Williams
22. Tyler Morgan
23. Rhun Williams

Also in squad:
Navidi (can play across back row)
Thomas Young
Elliot Dee
A young prop (Leon Brown or Dillon Lewis)

Not in squad:
- Henson, Hibbard, Hook, Shane Williams etc. (for reasons that should be obvious)
- Baldwin, Lydiate, Roberts, Cuthbert, King, Rhodri Jones - may or may not still have something to offer Wales, but we know what they can do and there's not much point taking them.
- Hallam Amos / Ashton Hewitt - big fan of both but they're still injured / lacking game time if not.
- Corey Allen, Ollie Griffiths, Gareth Anscombe - good players but there's a lot of competition in their positions. FH is covered with three in my first XV.


Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:57 am
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Post Re: Wales XXIII for Summer tour.
Prys#1 wrote:
:D

Baker
King
Young
Cracknell
Davies
Navidi
Jenkins

The above list of loosies is not the whole picture, there are four other who may come into the reckoning.
The Dragons trio of Ollie Griffiths, Nic Cudd and Lewis Evans impressed me on JD.
Then also we have Thomas Young (Nigel's spawn) currently making a name for himself at Wasps.
Hmmm just noticed that Young is mentioned above, but I'll leave my post as is.


Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:15 am
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