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Hartley 
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Post Re: Hartley
The english have no shame, they are so desperate for success, just look at that South African Cat who saved Wilkinson's arse in that big game a while back.

They are a mongrel bunch at the best of times.


Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
This french report states that Harley is to be given a 'simulated' rugby match fitness test ie a specific test tbat will give him the equivalent stress and exertions of a full match.

This stretches the intent of a ban into farce?

In french but just as a reference, it's probably in english somewhere ... might even have been reported on here?

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/ ... edi/769545

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:45 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
Tony Panties wrote:
This french report states that Harley is to be given a 'simulated' rugby match fitness test ie a specific test tbat will give him the equivalent stress and exertions of a full match.

This stretches the intent of a ban into farce?

In french but just as a reference, it's probably in english somewhere ... might even have been reported on here?

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/ ... edi/769545


How? The ban is to stop them playing. What a team does outside that is their own business.

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:54 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
Troron wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
This french report states that Harley is to be given a 'simulated' rugby match fitness test ie a specific test tbat will give him the equivalent stress and exertions of a full match.

This stretches the intent of a ban into farce?

In french but just as a reference, it's probably in english somewhere ... might even have been reported on here?

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/ ... edi/769545


How? The ban is to stop them playing. What a team does outside that is their own business.


England are treating him as normal and even simulating matches which in the spirit of the ban he shouldn't play.

I am well aware of the aspects of Pro Rugby and the manoeuvring that is becoming more evident cue, for example, convenient timeframe of bans that ignore recommendations and also the nequality across countries and leagues and competitions tbat has already been discussed.

Hartley is a stand out villain and he is being cotton wooled by England for selfish purposes.

Ok that's a purist, impractical even naive view but it is a sincere opinion ;)

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:24 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
If a Pro player gets banned surely it is his prerogative and responsibility to stay as fit as he can, he is a pro,sportsman after all!


Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:28 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
Keith L wrote:
If a Pro player gets banned surely it is his prerogative and responsibility to stay as fit as he can, he is a pro,sportsman after all!



Dont dispute that, it's the National side continued inclusion in the process and simulation of match fitness which is one of the penalties of having match bans that is complicity in modifying the effect of the penalty that I dislike.

As stated I'm'well aware of Pro Rugby player, Club and National imperatives but purpose and spirit of bans are, imo, being sidestepped.

That's allb

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:49 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
Tony Panties wrote:
Troron wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
This french report states that Harley is to be given a 'simulated' rugby match fitness test ie a specific test tbat will give him the equivalent stress and exertions of a full match.

This stretches the intent of a ban into farce?

In french but just as a reference, it's probably in english somewhere ... might even have been reported on here?

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/ ... edi/769545


How? The ban is to stop them playing. What a team does outside that is their own business.


England are treating him as normal and even simulating matches which in the spirit of the ban he shouldn't play.

I am well aware of the aspects of Pro Rugby and the manoeuvring that is becoming more evident cue, for example, convenient timeframe of bans that ignore recommendations and also the nequality across countries and leagues and competitions tbat has already been discussed.

Hartley is a stand out villain and he is being cotton wooled by England for selfish purposes.

Ok that's a purist, impractical even naive view but it is a sincere opinion ;)


Again, whatever training England decide to put him through is entirely England's business. The ban is for games and nothing more. If anything I'd ask why nobody else does this if it's a player they want? If they do then why make an issue out of this case? In the modern era this seems like a pretty sensible thing to do with a banned player.

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:04 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
There is, imo, a fine line between not playing a game due to a ban and bringing all the resources at the National level to
nullify that to the prime degree. Is he also captaining the squad in training? Effectively it's nullifying the purpose of a ban in my opinion.

Remember too that Hartley is a known villain and the original extent of the ban was treated with suspicion given the offence and his record. There was a considerable opinion at the time that the ban fitted nicely to end before the first Eng 6Ns match.

That is just supposition but the record does show considerable variations in bans allocated in the first place.

I'm not switching tack just highlighting my opinion that it highlights some of the cynical approaches of Pro Rugby towards discipline and penalty.

It is a subjective opinion and I see no reason to change it.

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:34 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
Tony Panties wrote:
There is, imo, a fine line between not playing a game due to a ban and bringing all the resources at the National level to
nullify that to the prime degree. Is he also captaining the squad in training? Effectively it's nullifying the purpose of a ban in my opinion.

Remember too that Hartley is a known villain and the original extent of the ban was treated with suspicion given the offence and his record. There was a considerable opinion at the time that the ban fitted nicely to end before the first Eng 6Ns match.

That is just supposition but the record does show considerable variations in bans allocated in the first place.

I'm not switching tack just highlighting my opinion that it highlights some of the cynical approaches of Pro Rugby towards discipline and penalty.

It is a subjective opinion and I see no reason to change it.


Sorry but the sole purpose of a ban is to stop a player from appearing in games for their side, nothing more. The point of a ban is not to stop training, not to stop their selection in the national side and not to appear at games with the team, it is simply to stop them playing.

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:50 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
Troron wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
There is, imo, a fine line between not playing a game due to a ban and bringing all the resources at the National level to
nullify that to the prime degree. Is he also captaining the squad in training? Effectively it's nullifying the purpose of a ban in my opinion.

Remember too that Hartley is a known villain and the original extent of the ban was treated with suspicion given the offence and his record. There was a considerable opinion at the time that the ban fitted nicely to end before the first Eng 6Ns match.

That is just supposition but the record does show considerable variations in bans allocated in the first place.

I'm not switching tack just highlighting my opinion that it highlights some of the cynical approaches of Pro Rugby towards discipline and penalty.

It is a subjective opinion and I see no reason to change it.


Sorry but the sole purpose of a ban is to stop a player from appearing in games for their side, nothing more. The point of a ban is not to stop training, not to stop their selection in the national side and not to appear at games with the team, it is simply to stop them playing.


In the world cup, Wales got into a bit of trouble for training with players outside the squad. In rugby terms, Hartly is in jail and I would argue that this is worse than training with non squad players.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:03 pm
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Post Re: Hartley
Cymru am byth wrote:
In the world cup, Wales got into a bit of trouble for training with players outside the squad. In rugby terms, Hartly is in jail and I would argue that this is worse than training with non squad players.


Yes because they used players they had not put in their squad. In rugby turns Hartley is banned from playing, NOT from training and NOT from being part of the England squad so what England are doing is completely legal. A ban doesn't force Hartley out of the England squad.

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Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:11 am
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Post Re: Hartley
Troron wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
There is, imo, a fine line between not playing a game due to a ban and bringing all the resources at the National level to
nullify that to the prime degree. Is he also captaining the squad in training? Effectively it's nullifying the purpose of a ban in my opinion.

Remember too that Hartley is a known villain and the original extent of the ban was treated with suspicion given the offence and his record. There was a considerable opinion at the time that the ban fitted nicely to end before the first Eng 6Ns match.

That is just supposition but the record does show considerable variations in bans allocated in the first place.

I'm not switching tack just highlighting my opinion that it highlights some of the cynical approaches of Pro Rugby towards discipline and penalty.

It is a subjective opinion and I see no reason to change it.


Sorry but the sole purpose of a ban is to stop a player from appearing in games for their side, nothing more. The point of a ban is not to stop training, not to stop their selection in the national side and not to appear at games with the team, it is simply to stop them playing.


I assume he loses pay?

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Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:17 am
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Post Re: Hartley
So, in summary Hartley will be fit to lead England in his first match after his ban and only his Club has suffered in the interim. The formal lengthy scheduled match playing ban has made little difference to himself and England.

Potentially from an Eng point of view the ban has been beneficial ...he couldve been injured or banned again nearer the 6Ns eh?

Regarding pay loss International presence is omnipotent

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Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:22 am
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Post Re: Hartley
Tony Panties wrote:
So, in summary Hartley will be fit to lead England in his first match after his ban and only his Club has suffered in the interim. The formal lengthy scheduled match playing ban has made little difference to himself and England.

Potentially from an Eng point of view the ban has been beneficial ...he couldve been injured or banned again nearer the 6Ns eh?

Regarding pay loss International presence is omnipotent


Those are the rules everyone plays by, can't change them because you don't like him. Others have benefited in a similar way and it's not like he hasn't missed out on big internationals because of bans before.

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Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:35 am
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Post Re: Hartley
Troron wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
So, in summary Hartley will be fit to lead England in his first match after his ban and only his Club has suffered in the interim. The formal lengthy scheduled match playing ban has made little difference to himself and England.

Potentially from an Eng point of view the ban has been beneficial ...he couldve been injured or banned again nearer the 6Ns eh?

Regarding pay loss International presence is omnipotent


Those are the rules everyone plays by, can't change them because you don't like him. Others have benefited in a similar way and it's not like he hasn't missed out on big internationals because of bans before.


The fact he missed out on other internationals means nothing other than to accentuate his shocking behaviour and reflect back on the amount of the ban?

----------------

I am passing an opinion on the reaction of a National team to openly sidestep the effects of a ban for the National Captain and not to in any way admonish a player who has a shocking record..

It flies in the face of discipline and role model example.

The fact that the rules are manipulated to ensure minimum effect of the ban is, imo, at minimum, disappointing.

Yes the rules are rules but the intended consequences are evaded openly.

Tincou the Perpignan hooker was suspended for gouging in a euro match with the Ospreys ... he got a very lengthy ban ...

2 aspects ..

. the ban was based on supposition and the penalty was out of proportion with subsequent other bans

.FFR subsequently went to french law and he played throughout the ban in the Top14 but not in Europe

The law is quite often an ass and should be commented on as such.

The Hartley case deserves adverse comment in my opinion.

Troron that is my sincere opinion, period.
I respect yours pls respect mine.

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Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:32 am
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