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Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017 
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
buglet wrote:
I think there is little question Wales is over-represented in the squad and I think the Scots are under-represented. Many of the Welsh have done little to justify their selection in the last year or two and I think we can all predict the way the teams will play. Gatland has almost done a Woodward here.

3-0 to NZ.


Your bias and bile is well understood historically on this board hence your words mean nothing.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:14 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
buglet wrote:
I think there is little question Wales is over-represented in the squad and I think the Scots are under-represented. Many of the Welsh have done little to justify their selection in the last year or two and I think we can all predict the way the teams will play. Gatland has almost done a Woodward here.

3-0 to NZ.


The difference being the English players will form the Test side not the Welsh.

I have a feeling all 6 on display today will be in the Test 23 as an example.

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Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:28 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
buglet wrote:
I think there is little question Wales is over-represented in the squad and I think the Scots are under-represented. Many of the Welsh have done little to justify their selection in the last year or two and I think we can all predict the way the teams will play. Gatland has almost done a Woodward here.

3-0 to NZ.


Your bias and bile is well understood historically on this board hence your words mean nothing.


Thank you for informing me of that and kudos for researching my past posts so well and forming such a definitive judgement.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:06 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
Langland Exile wrote:
buglet wrote:
I think there is little question Wales is over-represented in the squad and I think the Scots are under-represented. Many of the Welsh have done little to justify their selection in the last year or two and I think we can all predict the way the teams will play. Gatland has almost done a Woodward here.

3-0 to NZ.


The difference being the English players will form the Test side not the Welsh.

I have a feeling all 6 on display today will be in the Test 23 as an example.


Yes, I think you are right.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:07 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Forrealz wrote:
There is no doubt there is a bias to Welsh and possibly even kiwi selections, it may be small, but he knows and trusts these guys..
The last thing you want is an Ashton (was that him) like behaviours as Henry encountered.

The Hartleys and the English fullback like peeps look a little sus to me. Hartley and the kiwi connection may have come together, but he has left out some of these tricky players, Manu injured included.



Can we stop this nonsense of bias and move on?

What is done is done.
Move on from what?

Pick over past failures on the RFU Board.

Ill use the kiwi angle, Jarred Payne and Teo. Jarred wouldn't be a automatic selection for may coaches, would Eddie Jones have choosen him? Would Eddie have picked Teo. But Gatland has faith in them, and sees something. AWJ's and Halfpenny are proven to Gatland. Not saying anything is wrong with that.
Comparing what Jarred Payne and Teo would do for the team vrs a Manu and Mike Brown may give? culture anf loyalty? Teo hardly going to come home and jump off a boat into the harbour? (yes Manu is injured)
Not even saying its bad, if it works for Gatland and the Lions sweet?
of course theirs bias, in NZ if the coach is from Canterbury, theres more Canterbury players, from Auckland, theres more Auckland players.
There is bias but that aint bad, nor a new thing... hardly nonsence, imo, its nature of beast stuff, and history of player revolt like Aussie with Henry, his boys, Welsh and kiwi wont do that.

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Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:29 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
Langland Exile wrote:
buglet wrote:
I think there is little question Wales is over-represented in the squad and I think the Scots are under-represented. Many of the Welsh have done little to justify their selection in the last year or two and I think we can all predict the way the teams will play. Gatland has almost done a Woodward here.

3-0 to NZ.


The difference being the English players will form the Test side not the Welsh.

I have a feeling all 6 on display today will be in the Test 23 as an example.

I still reccon its natural, he'll take the troops that are loyal proven and will die for him and Lions...
If you picked the Irish, Scotts or English coach for this, they would go with players they know trust and have faith in, and maybe still have the top players in the first team/

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Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

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Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:35 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
eog wrote:
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Forrealz wrote:
There is no doubt there is a bias to Welsh and possibly even kiwi selections, it may be small, but he knows and trusts these guys..
The last thing you want is an Ashton (was that him) like behaviours as Henry encountered.

The Hartleys and the English fullback like peeps look a little sus to me. Hartley and the kiwi connection may have come together, but he has left out some of these tricky players, Manu injured included.

Can we stop this nonsense of bias and move on?
What is done is done.
Pick over past failures on the RFU Board.


Gatland has his favourites, we in Cymru know that more than anyone.
He is also inflexible regarding tactics, we in Cymru know that more than anyone.
It shouldn't be surprising if he's picked a squad that includes his favourites and excludes potential dissenting types.

Given that Gatland's fans keep saying that Cymru hasn't got the players so he has to make lemonade with lemons. It will be interesting to see what sort of beverage he makes now he's got the pick of the whole fruit bowl.

a nice fruit punch that has a heavy lemon flavour, and a weird taste of kiwi, that possibly doesn't improve the flavor.

Saying that Teo will take a lot of heat in the dirt track games at centre, his muscle will do well in the midweek battles.

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Don't tell me we have too many, and take too many PI players, we were founded by Pasifika people, we're a Pasific Island you bleep bleep..

Scuse my English/spelling/gramma and foul language


Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:40 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
EOG? if you are 'We in Cymru' then I out you

You speak for no one.


Well I speak for myself. You don't seem to like to address points you disagree with and show why you think they are wrong . I guess that's you speaking for yourself.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:22 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
buglet wrote:
I think there is little question Wales is over-represented in the squad and I think the Scots are under-represented. Many of the Welsh have done little to justify their selection in the last year or two and I think we can all predict the way the teams will play. Gatland has almost done a Woodward here.

3-0 to NZ.


i think if you look at bare numbers then that's possible right, but in a case by case situation i'm not so sure that stands up.

JD2 is one player who i think is very lucky to be there. I would have looked to have taken jones over him but he's out for the season. so maybe the irish can feel hard done by with ringrose but not the scots in that position. JD2 was probably taken as a bolter. he's likely behind daly, joseph, henshaw and teo in the pecking order, then add in farrell and payne as options then JD is probably someone who if he comes good, then it's a massive bonus, and if he doesn't, there's experience for the dirt trackers. all the other lions centres are debutants so experience will help.

AWJ is massively under rated in wales. outside of the goldfish bowl he is very highly regarded. he is also a leader. if you look at the other 2nd rows who have been selected, everyone of them is a debutant. launchbury is unlucky, but would you have taken gray over someone with 2 lions tours, captain in the last lions test and is proven to perform in the big occasion?

1/2p - hogg is there, kearney is injured but payne selected, would you take brown instead?

back row, warburton, faletau don't think you can argue with, some will argue with tipuric but he is also someone massively rated outside of the goldfish bowl. during the 6N he was nominated in nearly every team that was selected as a team of the week. i don't think anyone would have noticed if moriarty wasn't selected and could be argued as an alternative to watson, but different players in different positions. watson wouldn't get a look in at 7, same as barclay with warbirton, tipuric and s'ob, so don't think he's been taken over a scot. on the blindisde the irish have 2 really strong contenters and also the option of s'ob ad wouldn't take any of the scottish blindsides over them

owen deserves his place.

webb, could have been fighting for a place with laidlaw, but laidlaw is injured, and not really that good. he's not going to be kicking for the lions, and can't see him starting over murray or youngs, so he's competing with webb for the 3rd spot, and laidlaw doesn't really offer anything off the bench. so again don't think it's a welsh player taken at the expense of a scot.

biggar - sexton & farrell rightly there. ford can't be hidden defensively in new zealand so would be masisvely exposed by sonny bill williams. and there are much better 12's than farrell so the english 10 / 12 axis is not the strongest option available to the lions. and russell has constantly shown he can't handle the pressure when the game is tight and then can't control a game. biggar is the right choice imo.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:51 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
there is also the likelyhood that none of the welsh players will make the starting 22 outside of warburton, but with so many debutants, he's selected welsh players to add experience to touring. then add in gatland is a hard task masker in training and the welsh players busting a gut even though they aren't going to be selected may spur on the others so they don't have a strop like austin healy or matt dawson


Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:56 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
mr messy wrote:
buglet wrote:
I think there is little question Wales is over-represented in the squad and I think the Scots are under-represented. Many of the Welsh have done little to justify their selection in the last year or two and I think we can all predict the way the teams will play. Gatland has almost done a Woodward here.

3-0 to NZ.


i think if you look at bare numbers then that's possible right, but in a case by case situation i'm not so sure that stands up.

JD2 is one player who i think is very lucky to be there. I would have looked to have taken jones over him but he's out for the season. so maybe the irish can feel hard done by with ringrose but not the scots in that position. JD2 was probably taken as a bolter. he's likely behind daly, joseph, henshaw and teo in the pecking order, then add in farrell and payne as options then JD is probably someone who if he comes good, then it's a massive bonus, and if he doesn't, there's experience for the dirt trackers. all the other lions centres are debutants so experience will help.

AWJ is massively under rated in wales. outside of the goldfish bowl he is very highly regarded. he is also a leader. if you look at the other 2nd rows who have been selected, everyone of them is a debutant. launchbury is unlucky, but would you have taken gray over someone with 2 lions tours, captain in the last lions test and is proven to perform in the big occasion?

1/2p - hogg is there, kearney is injured but payne selected, would you take brown instead?

back row, warburton, faletau don't think you can argue with, some will argue with tipuric but he is also someone massively rated outside of the goldfish bowl. during the 6N he was nominated in nearly every team that was selected as a team of the week. i don't think anyone would have noticed if moriarty wasn't selected and could be argued as an alternative to watson, but different players in different positions. watson wouldn't get a look in at 7, same as barclay with warbirton, tipuric and s'ob, so don't think he's been taken over a scot. on the blindisde the irish have 2 really strong contenters and also the option of s'ob ad wouldn't take any of the scottish blindsides over them

owen deserves his place.

webb, could have been fighting for a place with laidlaw, but laidlaw is injured, and not really that good. he's not going to be kicking for the lions, and can't see him starting over murray or youngs, so he's competing with webb for the 3rd spot, and laidlaw doesn't really offer anything off the bench. so again don't think it's a welsh player taken at the expense of a scot.

biggar - sexton & farrell rightly there. ford can't be hidden defensively in new zealand so would be masisvely exposed by sonny bill williams. and there are much better 12's than farrell so the english 10 / 12 axis is not the strongest option available to the lions. and russell has constantly shown he can't handle the pressure when the game is tight and then can't control a game. biggar is the right choice imo.

Yep, agree with all of that

Especially the AWJ bit. I think he had a good six nations and as you say he's the only second row taken who's a previous lion......a winning captain too!


Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:58 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
mr messy wrote:
there is also the likelyhood that none of the welsh players will make the starting 22 outside of warburton, but with so many debutants, he's selected welsh players to add experience to touring. then add in gatland is a hard task masker in training and the welsh players busting a gut even though they aren't going to be selected may spur on the others so they don't have a strop like austin healy or matt dawson

Agree with this too.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:59 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
PS Watched Moriarty play a big part in Gloucs win against La Rochelle tonight.

Underlined why he's in the Lions squad .... tough, rough real bloody pest and he took a lot too :thumbup:

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Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:50 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2017
Tony Panties wrote:
PS Watched Moriarty play a big part in Gloucs win against La Rochelle tonight.

Underlined why he's in the Lions squad .... tough, rough real bloody pest and he took a lot too :thumbup:

I understand that he was a success on the Welsh tour last summer, so he has the proven character to stand up during the provincial games, I have never seen a Kiwi 6 who is anything other the completely uncompromising


Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Lions Tour of New Zealand 2
I've avoided posting on this subject so that I could ponder and reflect on some of the issues first.

There are a few misconceptions and some very illogical posts on Scottish under-representation here.

1. The myth of the Twickenham 60 pointer. Let's put this in context. Scotland had a reserve scrum-half playing on the wing and a reserve fly-half playing at full-back before half-time due to injuries. I'd be interested to see how Wales or anybody else for that matter would have coped under those circumstances? Does it mean that Hamish Watson or Fraser Brown had shockingly poor games or did England have carte-Blanche to piss straight through the midfield as the centres were trying to cover the wing and not playing the normal drift defence as they couldn't trust Duncan Weir a FH playing FB to properly adapt to that system?

2. Gatland has favoured players who have won significant matches away from home. Really? So where do Ben Te'o or Ross Moriarty fit into that category?

3. Big game temperament is required. Agreed, so in the biggest club tournament in the NH how many Welsh players were playing in the knock-out stages? Scotland had pretty much 1-15 in the Warriors side, Maitland and Taylor at Saracens and Richie Gray at Toulouse!

4. Gatland is refusing to take too much stock of Scotland beating Wales in the 6N but if you compare their records against the touring Wallabies last Autumn then Wales were trounced and Scotland edged out by 2 points despite outscoring the Aussies by 3 tries to 2, why compare that match? Well, it's the only game vs a SH side that both played so is the only comparator.


Looking over the squad I can't understand how Moriarty or Tipuric were favoured over Hamish Watson, Iain Henderson was selected ahead of Jonny Gray, Ken Owens got in ahead of Fraser Brown and Elliot Daly got the nod over Sean Maitland. That's before we talk about Russell!

It has been said that a lack of Scots on the coaching panel hindered Scottish selection? Really! Do Gatland, Borthwick and Farrell not watch enough of a broad range of rugby to enable an objective decision without favouritism coming into play? It would seem not which is a damning verdict on the lot of them.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:10 pm
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