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This is taking the pi55 
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
trampie wrote:
The scores are on the doors, Wales 15pts, Scotland 13pts, France 11pts and England only 10pts.


Granted. But if we base our view of where we are in terms of self analysis on the points in the championship and think all is rosy, we will get unstuck.

We thrashed Scotland. We should have been beaten by France. Scotland beat England yet they almost lost to Italy and so on.


Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:35 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Its a round robin format and the scores on the doors placed the English bottom but one, cant argue with that.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:51 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
trampie wrote:
Its a round robin format and the scores on the doors placed the English bottom but one, cant argue with that.


It would be foolish to draw too many conclusions from this year's tournament. International rugby is a game won by small errors. I get that. In a small tournament like the six nations, unless one team dominates (Ireland) and one team does badly (Italy), very small errors can make a huge difference. A team can get lucky in this sort of format. If say another 5 or even 15 games were played, against the same opposition and all other things remained equal. I would still expect Ireland to win it and Italy to lose it. The other three teams would be anyone's call.

When taking a cold hard look at your team you need to understand where a win was lucky and a loss was unlucky. Or where an assesment of percentage rugby can be used. Sure, both a narrow win and a narrow loss of these will impact confidence.

But if you are back slapping the team after Trinh Duc won us the game against France, you are deluding yourself into thinking that the victory was based on good tactics and a good approach to the game.

A win is important but longer term performance is the foundation on which you build success.


Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:08 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Cymru am byth wrote:
trampie wrote:
Its a round robin format and the scores on the doors placed the English bottom but one, cant argue with that.


It would be foolish to draw too many conclusions from this year's tournament. International rugby is a game won by small errors. I get that. In a small tournament like the six nations, unless one team dominates (Ireland) and one team does badly (Italy), very small errors can make a huge difference. A team can get lucky in this sort of format. If say another 5 or even 15 games were played, against the same opposition and all other things remained equal. I would still expect Ireland to win it and Italy to lose it. The other three teams would be anyone's call.

When taking a cold hard look at your team you need to understand where a win was lucky and a loss was unlucky. Or where an assesment of percentage rugby can be used. Sure, both a narrow win and a narrow loss of these will impact confidence.

But if you are back slapping the team after Trinh Duc won us the game against France, you are deluding yourself into thinking that the victory was based on good tactics and a good approach to the game.

A win is important but longer term performance is the foundation on which you build success.

The pecking order as regards England was right, its where they deserved to be.
If you think England should not have finished bottom but one and i cant see the rationale for that, then who should have been bottom but one ?, if you lump England in with Wales, Scotland and France then Scotland and France both beat England handily and England only just beat Wales after the TMO made a terrible mistake that the authorities apologised for.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:22 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
trampie wrote:
England were well beaten against Scotland, France and Ireland, with England getting late scores to narrow the gap in the score lines when they were clearly second best. England got lucky in a close game against Wales with the authorities even giving Wales a formal apology, England's bottom but one ranking was merited.


Funny, I recall the whole "scores on the doors" wasn't your attitude when it was Wales coming 5th was it? Something along the lines of being robbed. Then again you were claiming England were shit even as we went a year unbeaten so it's not exactly like anything will ever change your opinion. Seriously, you need to look at your attitude with regards to England, you have never said a good thing about them. Constructive criticism is fine but you just slag them off with nothing constructive being offered and it is tiresome. You'll be going straight back on the block list if that's how you wish to continue.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:24 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
trampie wrote:
England were well beaten against Scotland, France and Ireland, with England getting late scores to narrow the gap in the score lines when they were clearly second best. England got lucky in a close game against Wales with the authorities even giving Wales a formal apology, England's bottom but one ranking was merited.


Funny, I recall the whole "scores on the doors" wasn't your attitude when it was Wales coming 5th was it? Something along the lines of being robbed. Then again you were claiming England were shit even as we went a year unbeaten so it's not exactly like anything will ever change your opinion. Seriously, you need to look at your attitude with regards to England, you have never said a good thing about them. Constructive criticism is fine but you just slag them off with nothing constructive being offered and it is tiresome. You'll be going straight back on the block list if that's how you wish to continue.

I call a spade a spade, England were the worst but one team in this seasons six nations.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:54 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
trampie wrote:
Troron wrote:
trampie wrote:
England were well beaten against Scotland, France and Ireland, with England getting late scores to narrow the gap in the score lines when they were clearly second best. England got lucky in a close game against Wales with the authorities even giving Wales a formal apology, England's bottom but one ranking was merited.


Funny, I recall the whole "scores on the doors" wasn't your attitude when it was Wales coming 5th was it? Something along the lines of being robbed. Then again you were claiming England were shit even as we went a year unbeaten so it's not exactly like anything will ever change your opinion. Seriously, you need to look at your attitude with regards to England, you have never said a good thing about them. Constructive criticism is fine but you just slag them off with nothing constructive being offered and it is tiresome. You'll be going straight back on the block list if that's how you wish to continue.

I call a spade a spade, England were the worst but one team in this seasons six nations.


Which would be fairer if you hadn't done the same thing last year and the year before and the year before. Again remind me why it wasn't just "scores on the doors" for Wales last year. Won the same number of games, scored the same number of points, conceded 6 less but scored almost half as many tries as England this year. If anything an even worse performance than England this year yet I don't recall you claiming Wales were the worst but 1 and deserved their position. You also didn't claim England deserved the win last year either.

I mean seriously, when was the last time you said England were anything but average?

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:02 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
trampie wrote:
Troron wrote:
trampie wrote:
England were well beaten against Scotland, France and Ireland, with England getting late scores to narrow the gap in the score lines when they were clearly second best. England got lucky in a close game against Wales with the authorities even giving Wales a formal apology, England's bottom but one ranking was merited.


Funny, I recall the whole "scores on the doors" wasn't your attitude when it was Wales coming 5th was it? Something along the lines of being robbed. Then again you were claiming England were shit even as we went a year unbeaten so it's not exactly like anything will ever change your opinion. Seriously, you need to look at your attitude with regards to England, you have never said a good thing about them. Constructive criticism is fine but you just slag them off with nothing constructive being offered and it is tiresome. You'll be going straight back on the block list if that's how you wish to continue.

I call a spade a spade, England were the worst but one team in this seasons six nations.


Which would be fairer if you hadn't done the same thing last year and the year before and the year before. Again remind me why it wasn't just "scores on the doors" for Wales last year. Won the same number of games, scored the same number of points, conceded 6 less but scored almost half as many tries as England this year. If anything an even worse performance than England this year yet I don't recall you claiming Wales were the worst but 1 and deserved their position. You also didn't claim England deserved the win last year either.

I mean seriously, when was the last time you said England were anything but average?

England were below average in the six nations this season, if you want me to respond to quotes from years gone by you need to find them.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:10 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
trampie wrote:
England were below average in the six nations this season, if you want me to respond to quotes from years gone by you need to find them.


You're asking me to look for quotes I'm saying you have never said... Fact is, you have yet again deflected and failed to answer the question. You need to look at your England issues. Back onto the block list as you clearly have absolutely nothing to contribute.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:45 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
trampie wrote:
England were below average in the six nations this season, if you want me to respond to quotes from years gone by you need to find them.


You're asking me to look for quotes I'm saying you have never said... Fact is, you have yet again deflected and failed to answer the question. You need to look at your England issues. Back onto the block list as you clearly have absolutely nothing to contribute.
You seem to be claiming i have said things that i have not said, seems like that as regards England as far as you are concerned the truth hurts.

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Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:52 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
Not a fan of selecting him, the fact is the English premiership DOES have good flankers and players who operated well at the breakdown. The issue the that successive English coaches have refused to select them which has given the impression that we have no home grown talent up to the task. I'd be disappointed if Jones just plonks in Shields for our tour of SA with Robshaw or Haskell. I have a bad feeling Jones is not going to use the SA tour to give English players a chance and is going to continue to stick with the same group and same tactics. The fact it's taken coming 5th for him to even acknowledge there was a problem is kinda worrying when the signs have been there for over a year.

As for this situation, NZ don't really have a leg to stand on. WR rules explicitly say that if a player is eligible to play for a country then the clubs are not allowed to block him from being selected to play for them during the designated international windows. Doesn't matter what is in his contract, the contract is in breach of WR rules. The only reason this hasn't been an issue before is because a player based in NZ has not be called up to play for another international team whilst still being based in NZ. If it goes to court then WR will simply ask why they mandate all NZ club players sign a clause that directly contradicts WR rules on releasing players for internationals. I think if push comes to shove, WR will just declare that clause is null and void.

England are weak in the backrow, they don't seem to have a quality openside, they don't have a link man between forwards and backs for continuity of play, they are slow to the breakdown and could be better at getting any turnovers, it has been an on going problem for England for quite some time.

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Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:51 am
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Oh dear this guy is not an openside.

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Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:00 am
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Troron wrote:
England scored the 2nd most tries and conceded the 2nd fewest. It was bad for us but but penalties made up a larger portion of the points scored against us than for any other team and the majority of those penalties were at the breakdown...

All that proves is that engerland cheat more than anyone else and are also not very good at it because they kept on getting caught

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Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:20 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
trampie wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
trampie wrote:
Its a round robin format and the scores on the doors placed the English bottom but one, cant argue with that.


It would be foolish to draw too many conclusions from this year's tournament. International rugby is a game won by small errors. I get that. In a small tournament like the six nations, unless one team dominates (Ireland) and one team does badly (Italy), very small errors can make a huge difference. A team can get lucky in this sort of format. If say another 5 or even 15 games were played, against the same opposition and all other things remained equal. I would still expect Ireland to win it and Italy to lose it. The other three teams would be anyone's call.

When taking a cold hard look at your team you need to understand where a win was lucky and a loss was unlucky. Or where an assesment of percentage rugby can be used. Sure, both a narrow win and a narrow loss of these will impact confidence.

But if you are back slapping the team after Trinh Duc won us the game against France, you are deluding yourself into thinking that the victory was based on good tactics and a good approach to the game.

A win is important but longer term performance is the foundation on which you build success.

The pecking order as regards England was right, its where they deserved to be.
If you think England should not have finished bottom but one and i cant see the rationale for that, then who should have been bottom but one ?, if you lump England in with Wales, Scotland and France then Scotland and France both beat England handily and England only just beat Wales after the TMO made a terrible mistake that the authorities apologised for.


I think you miss the point I am making.

I don't honestly believe that a strong case can be made that the table truly represents a good reflection of standing. As far as


You precisely demonstrate my point by bringing up the TMO (of which a few bad decisions were made). When there are lots of ifs and buts from a game the result does not necessarily represent the quality of the team.

The best means of doing that is the IRB ranking where England are in 3rd. Their form under Jones has been consistently better than ours. Other than a TMO decision which wouldn't have necessaripy won us the match, they haven't lost to us in a while. Also, their Autumn Internationals and summer tours have been much better than ours. If we use the snapshot of the Six Nations to demonstrate that England are the 5th best team in Europe then we are deluding ourselves in ignoring the reasons and evidence that they have been better than us for a while. And yet again, we sit back, relax on our achivements (an average 6Nations) and pretend we are better than we are, lacking the means to improve further.

We have a tendency to either think we are much better than we are or claim it is doom and gloom. To improve ourselves we need an honest assessment of our merits. As it is we will gloss over the problems of not winning against southern hemisphere teams and coming second in what was frankly an odd six nations (from 2nd to 5th) and not improve.

The smaller the tournament, the more suprious the results can be.


Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:47 pm
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Post Re: This is taking the pi55
Cymru am byth wrote:
trampie wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
trampie wrote:
Its a round robin format and the scores on the doors placed the English bottom but one, cant argue with that.


It would be foolish to draw too many conclusions from this year's tournament. International rugby is a game won by small errors. I get that. In a small tournament like the six nations, unless one team dominates (Ireland) and one team does badly (Italy), very small errors can make a huge difference. A team can get lucky in this sort of format. If say another 5 or even 15 games were played, against the same opposition and all other things remained equal. I would still expect Ireland to win it and Italy to lose it. The other three teams would be anyone's call.

When taking a cold hard look at your team you need to understand where a win was lucky and a loss was unlucky. Or where an assesment of percentage rugby can be used. Sure, both a narrow win and a narrow loss of these will impact confidence.

But if you are back slapping the team after Trinh Duc won us the game against France, you are deluding yourself into thinking that the victory was based on good tactics and a good approach to the game.

A win is important but longer term performance is the foundation on which you build success.

The pecking order as regards England was right, its where they deserved to be.
If you think England should not have finished bottom but one and i cant see the rationale for that, then who should have been bottom but one ?, if you lump England in with Wales, Scotland and France then Scotland and France both beat England handily and England only just beat Wales after the TMO made a terrible mistake that the authorities apologised for.


I think you miss the point I am making.

I don't honestly believe that a strong case can be made that the table truly represents a good reflection of standing. As far as


You precisely demonstrate my point by bringing up the TMO (of which a few bad decisions were made). When there are lots of ifs and buts from a game the result does not necessarily represent the quality of the team.

The best means of doing that is the IRB ranking where England are in 3rd. Their form under Jones has been consistently better than ours. Other than a TMO decision which wouldn't have necessaripy won us the match, they haven't lost to us in a while. Also, their Autumn Internationals and summer tours have been much better than ours. If we use the snapshot of the Six Nations to demonstrate that England are the 5th best team in Europe then we are deluding ourselves in ignoring the reasons and evidence that they have been better than us for a while. And yet again, we sit back, relax on our achivements (an average 6Nations) and pretend we are better than we are, lacking the means to improve further.

We have a tendency to either think we are much better than we are or claim it is doom and gloom. To improve ourselves we need an honest assessment of our merits. As it is we will gloss over the problems of not winning against southern hemisphere teams and coming second in what was frankly an odd six nations (from 2nd to 5th) and not improve.

The smaller the tournament, the more suprious the results can be.

It is not a small tournament, it is a large tournament, the most salient results are the most recent results and England have lost three on the bounce.

I think you missunderstand the point being made, the point is England finished 5th and deserved to finish 5th.
You said ''England were unlucky to finish 5th'', that was not the case over the 5 game competition England deserved to finish below Wales, Scotland and France, what i now think you are trying to say is you think that England are better than some of those teams but that does not equate to ''England were unlucky to finish 5th''.

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Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:00 pm
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