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Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have? 
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Post Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Italy's win last November against the albeit failing Springboks seems to have been the false dawn to end false dawns. In just two 6N matches (and at home as well) Italy have conceded nearly 100 points! (God only knows what the result next week at Twickenham will be?!) Why have they not progressed to be constant competitors like Argentina to a large extent have? After all, before at least the mid 90's, Italy were as good if not better than Argentina, and they joined the 6N much earlier than Argentina joined the Rugby Championship. Despite not being guaranteed annual matches against the Home Nations and France like Italy now are, unlike them Argentina have beaten England (including once at Twickenham) and have considerably better records against Scotland, Wales and especially France than do Italy (including wins in said countries). Argentina have also made it to at least the quarter-finals in four World Cups, whereas Italy have not come close. What explains the disparity between the two countries' rugby teams?


Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:39 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
najbritcol wrote:
Italy's win last November against the albeit failing Springboks seems to have been the false dawn to end false dawns. In just two 6N matches (and at home as well) Italy have conceded nearly 100 points! (God only knows what the result next week at Twickenham will be?!) Why have they not progressed to be constant competitors like Argentina to a large extent have? After all, before at least the mid 90's, Italy were as good if not better than Argentina, and they joined the 6N much earlier than Argentina joined the Rugby Championship. Despite not being guaranteed annual matches against the Home Nations and France like Italy now are, unlike them Argentina have beaten England (including once at Twickenham) and have considerably better records against Scotland, Wales and especially France than do Italy (including wins in said countries). Argentina have also made it to at least the quarter-finals in four World Cups, whereas Italy have not come close. What explains the disparity between the two countries' rugby teams?


How many Argentinian born players did Italy have in the 90s?


Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:29 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Fingal wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Italy's win last November against the albeit failing Springboks seems to have been the false dawn to end false dawns. In just two 6N matches (and at home as well) Italy have conceded nearly 100 points! (God only knows what the result next week at Twickenham will be?!) Why have they not progressed to be constant competitors like Argentina to a large extent have? After all, before at least the mid 90's, Italy were as good if not better than Argentina, and they joined the 6N much earlier than Argentina joined the Rugby Championship. Despite not being guaranteed annual matches against the Home Nations and France like Italy now are, unlike them Argentina have beaten England (including once at Twickenham) and have considerably better records against Scotland, Wales and especially France than do Italy (including wins in said countries). Argentina have also made it to at least the quarter-finals in four World Cups, whereas Italy have not come close. What explains the disparity between the two countries' rugby teams?


How many Argentinian born players did Italy have in the 90s?


They've had some very recently too, such as Sergio Parisse, Luciano Orquera, Martin Castrogiovanni and Gonzalo Garcia. Diego Dominguez was their most prominent Argentine during the 90's and early 00's. Anyway, I don't really think that was such a decisive factor in Italy's relative success during the 90's. One way or another, Italy beat Ireland three times in a row in AIs during the 90's, as well as beating France and Scotland. By contrast, since Italy joined the 6N, apart from being relatively competitive against a hitherto itself weak Scotland (including their biggest ever 6N victory: 17-37 at Murrayfield in 2007), Italy's record has been woeful - in the tournament they have only beaten Wales twice and drawn with them once, beaten France twice, Ireland once and England not at all (and given the current disparity between the two teams, are less likely to beat them now more than ever).


Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:49 am
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Rugby has been played in Argentina at a good club level for 100 years, with a tradition organized around social groups in BA plus a good geographic spread. The history of the game in each country is completely different.

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Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:45 am
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
It's very difficult to compare the amateur and professional eras of course.

I think it's becoming apparent that the Italian Pro12 experiment has thus far failed. Rather than concentrating talent it has concentrated mediocrity; the coaching and facilities are so bad at those two sides that the players would have been much better signing for foreign sides.

The way to improve is to focus on development, academies and youth. Once the players are good enough to sign for pro teams elsewhere, get them off the books and use the cash to bring forward the next generation. This is what Georgia have done over the past few years and they are reaping dividends - Georgia U20 came 10th in the JWC last year, and Italy U20 have never managed better than 11th despite playing in the U20 6N every year. I would definitely bet on Georgia beating Italy if they played each other today.


Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:38 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Argies have had significant players that developed and exhibited their talents in very good teams.

They developed a brand with their pack always their forte.

Their subsequent development on the international stage was sensibly managed into a 'home' representation in the 4 Ns.

They have also progressed to a wider scope of play ...... strong player base playing in top teams, lacking National coherence in that respect but talent and development of individuals well assured. Largely Uni based in the begining.
Few foreigners in the National set up converged to important National team ethic.

Inverse for Italy, bum teams decent talent but not developed individually or national wise. Convenient use of foreigners.

Common footy overshadowed so little diff there. Argies emigrated, Italy without impetus in all directions. 6Ns crowds disappointing too....

Some interesting Argie/Italy exchange e.g Domingo, french based and majored for Italy.

Very difficult to compare so just a few thoughts (above)

PS 'Amateur' days comparison was long ago and disappeared before it became official....

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Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:02 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Figaro wrote:
It's very difficult to compare the amateur and professional eras of course.

I think it's becoming apparent that the Italian Pro12 experiment has thus far failed. Rather than concentrating talent it has concentrated mediocrity; the coaching and facilities are so bad at those two sides that the players would have been much better signing for foreign sides.

The way to improve is to focus on development, academies and youth. Once the players are good enough to sign for pro teams elsewhere, get them off the books and use the cash to bring forward the next generation. This is what Georgia have done over the past few years and they are reaping dividends - Georgia U20 came 10th in the JWC last year, and Italy U20 have never managed better than 11th despite playing in the U20 6N every year. I would definitely bet on Georgia beating Italy if they played each other today.


I do agree that the Pro 12 Italian teams are useless, but your proposal that they should merely concentrate on academy and development players and get their best players to sign elsewhere would only make them even worse. (Some people make the same shitty reasoning regarding the Welsh regions too - that they should concentrate on developing younger players rather than seeking to retain older and more experienced ones who should go to England or France instead, even though the lack of the latter would worsen their results).


Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:17 am
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Some people think that the lower divisions' clubs and the Premiership are developing and producing young stars of the future, naj.

The youngsters then go into academies and are polished without any reward to the clubs below Regional level.

Or is that not the case? The rugby kids going into the Pencoed/Bridgend Colleges seem quite young to me.

Hmmmm.

And another thing, why did Cardiff Blues stop giving any money to Cardiff RFC and the Scarlets stop giving money to Llanelli RFC? All that has been in the press so it must be true.

:dontknow:


Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:29 am
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Bouch wrote:
Some people think that the lower divisions' clubs and the Premiership are developing and producing young stars of the future, naj.

The youngsters then go into academies and are polished without any reward to the clubs below Regional level.

Or is that not the case? The rugby kids going into the Pencoed/Bridgend Colleges seem quite young to me.

Hmmmm.

And another thing, why did Cardiff Blues stop giving any money to Cardiff RFC and the Scarlets stop giving money to Llanelli RFC? All that has been in the press so it must be true.

:dontknow:


Could we not stray too much off-topic please? The main point is: how can Italy be made more competitive and brought broadly into line with other so-called 'Tier One' countries just as Argentina have done?


Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:32 am
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
najbritcol wrote:
Bouch wrote:
Some people think that the lower divisions' clubs and the Premiership are developing and producing young stars of the future, naj.

The youngsters then go into academies and are polished without any reward to the clubs below Regional level.

Or is that not the case? The rugby kids going into the Pencoed/Bridgend Colleges seem quite young to me.

Hmmmm.

And another thing, why did Cardiff Blues stop giving any money to Cardiff RFC and the Scarlets stop giving money to Llanelli RFC? All that has been in the press so it must be true.

:dontknow:


Could we not stray too much off-topic please? The main point is: how can Italy be made more competitive and brought broadly into line with other so-called 'Tier One' countries just as Argentina have done?


It's a valid point Bouch makes .

We are playing Tucuman Tennis Club today at 1pm, after 4 inches of rain in the last 2 days...Should be fun, the pitch is plastic. I get to practice my Spanish also...and call everyone Che :D

They are an Argentina feeder club, with a history of over 50 years. That's why Argentina continue to turn out well coached players with good fundamentals.

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Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:28 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Langland Exile wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Bouch wrote:
Some people think that the lower divisions' clubs and the Premiership are developing and producing young stars of the future, naj.

The youngsters then go into academies and are polished without any reward to the clubs below Regional level.

Or is that not the case? The rugby kids going into the Pencoed/Bridgend Colleges seem quite young to me.

Hmmmm.

And another thing, why did Cardiff Blues stop giving any money to Cardiff RFC and the Scarlets stop giving money to Llanelli RFC? All that has been in the press so it must be true.

:dontknow:


Could we not stray too much off-topic please? The main point is: how can Italy be made more competitive and brought broadly into line with other so-called 'Tier One' countries just as Argentina have done?


It's a valid point Bouch makes .

We are playing Tucuman Tennis Club today at 1pm, after 4 inches of rain in the last 2 days...Should be fun, the pitch is plastic. I get to practice my Spanish also...and call everyone Che :D

They are an Argentina feeder club, with a history of over 50 years. That's why Argentina continue to turn out well coached players with good fundamentals.

:D

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Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:42 am
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
we should have accepted Argentina into the 6N not Italy. Italy are going backwards and there is just not enough support in the country for rugby. Argentina have a long history of rugby...even Che Guevera played it..!!


Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:07 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
SimplyRed wrote:
we should have accepted Argentina into the 6N not Italy. Italy are going backwards and there is just not enough support in the country for rugby. Argentina have a long history of rugby...even Che Guevera played it..!!


Well Argentina are now in the Rugby Championship and play pretty much the same role there that Italy do in the Six Nations, albeit at a higher base of course.


Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:12 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
najbritcol wrote:

Well Argentina are now in the Rugby Championship and play pretty much the same role there that Italy do in the Six Nations, albeit at a higher base of course.


It'll never work Jaguares will never cope , the " logistics and travel would be too costly and cumbersome."

;)


Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:34 pm
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Post Re: Why have Italy not progressed like Argentina have?
Llew wrote:
najbritcol wrote:

Well Argentina are now in the Rugby Championship and play pretty much the same role there that Italy do in the Six Nations, albeit at a higher base of course.


It'll never work Jaguares will never cope , the " logistics and travel would be too costly and cumbersome."

;)


Actually, they have already complained about that, and many Super Rugby fans themselves complain about all the travelling, as well as the incomprehensible and impenetrable conference and qualification system.


Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:40 pm
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