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RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest 
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
Blindside wrote:
Apologies if im talking nonsense here,but i always thought defibrillators were "idiot proof " in that if the heart had not stopped, they would pick up electrical impulses and fail to operate anyway. So in effect could be used with minimal training. Im probably way off the mark :dontknow:


That is utterly wrong in fact.

The defib will pick up the electrical impulses and figure out what is going on. Is it too fast, is it too slow, is it working at all, or is it just plain crazy? it will then deliver what the doctors, who advised the manufacturer, suggest is best.

I mentioned in an earlier post that the ambulance man had a print out, it was a continuous wave form collected by the machine whilst in action and showed every beet.

In my Wife's case the readout showed that her heart had gone crazy, no rhythm at all just random firing that just couldn't pump the blood. The deffib jolted it back into rhythm.

So it isn't a case of the heart stopping so much as it just not being in sync with the rest of the body.

Like a screw loose fly half I suppose.

:-)


Fri May 22, 2015 10:11 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Apologies if im talking nonsense here,but i always thought defibrillators were "idiot proof " in that if the heart had not stopped, they would pick up electrical impulses and fail to operate anyway. So in effect could be used with minimal training. Im probably way off the mark :dontknow:


That is utterly wrong in fact.

The defib will pick up the electrical impulses and figure out what is going on. Is it too fast, is it too slow, is it working at all, or is it just plain crazy? it will then deliver what the doctors, who advised the manufacturer, suggest is best.

I mentioned in an earlier post that the ambulance man had a print out, it was a continuous wave form collected by the machine whilst in action and showed every beet.

In my Wife's case the readout showed that her heart had gone crazy, no rhythm at all just random firing that just couldn't pump the blood. The deffib jolted it back into rhythm.

So it isn't a case of the heart stopping so much as it just not being in sync with the rest of the body.

Like a screw loose fly half I suppose.

:-)




So i was wrong about what the defib sets out to achieve, but was i correct that it is not that difficult to use, as it makes the decision for you ? Virtually idiot proof ? I dont mind if im wrong on all counts :D Just curious

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Fri May 22, 2015 11:54 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
not totally wrong a defib will only "shock" under certain conditions, that is the portable type machines, I am talking about .

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Fri May 22, 2015 12:19 pm
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
I think I was a bit pissed off about how this thread went off tangent and I apologise.

Essentially, the machine sees electrically what is going on and delivers a 'zap' of whatever voltage or duration that the medical experts advise.

There are different reasons for heart malfunction and luckily we have machines that can tell the difference .. far better than human's under the stress of the moment.

My Wife and daughter have internal defibrillators fitted, and I know they work. To have the external one's available in all public places is a no brainer to me ... I have fought death in the face and welcome their Allegiance.


Sun May 31, 2015 12:21 pm
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Where was the defibrillator?

It is incumbent upon us all to work for the day when every sports field has a Defibrillator at hand.

Believe me they work!


Could well have been one there. In fact, given the size of the game it likely there was an ambulance or at least St Johns on duty and they'd certainly have had one.

Unfortunately AEDs and Defibs aren't a magic cure all. Yes they work and can work well assuming you get the casualty shocked within a minute or so but they aren't a 100% cure all. In general their success rate is roughly 30% even when used within a few minutes. It depends on a lot of things such as VF actually being the cause of the incident and so on.

So yes, they're a life saver but not anything like a guarantee. The majority of people will still die.

In this case you cant draw any conclusion about the availability of an AED (or full on defib in an ambulance) and the outcome. Its very possible there was one, it was used but was ineffective.

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Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:15 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
Blindside wrote:
Apologies if im talking nonsense here,but i always thought defibrillators were "idiot proof " in that if the heart had not stopped, they would pick up electrical impulses and fail to operate anyway. So in effect could be used with minimal training. Im probably way off the mark :dontknow:


There's a difference here between AEDs (the automated lay person ones) and full on defibs (requiring trained paramedics). The AEDs are idiot proof. They analyse rhythm and only if it detects fibrillation (ie uncoordinated pulsing of heart muscles) will it decide on how much shock, the waveform and allow a shock at all. If theres no VF detected (no rhythm at all, some other anomaly) it simply wont do anything except yell out "continue CPR" etc.

Generally to use the 2 pads have a diagram of the body to show where to stick them, an "on" button and a shock button and thats it. Stick them on a healthy person or someone not in VF and they wont do anything. They are lay person proof.

They don't restart a "stopped" heart - they simple shock the pacemaker apparatus in the heart into forcing the muscles to contract in unison again.

However, they DO (well most) log completely the treatment and the cardiac rhythms which is why when professional help arrives you turn the device over to a paramedic. They can access this data and diagnose the exact problem and work out an appropriate treatment regime with professional gear to go from there.

A full on manual defibrillator allows far more user control on the types of problem, solution and the operator has control over what shock if any to deliver. This combined with drugs gives a more professionally trained person more scope for emergency treatment and stabilisation. These aren't "idiot proof" and the wrong call can easily kill either the victim or bystanders. They're professional devices that need full on long term professional training.

The majority of sudden cardiac problems start out at least with VF and the survival time goes down in the region of 10% per minute without a shock so having the things available in areas where people might have incidents (by available, treatment within 1-2 minutes) is a big big life saver.
Simple CPR on its own is highly unlikely to ever restart or resynchronise a heart. All you're doing is keeping the oxygen pumping around the body until such a time they can be defibrillated or treated by professionals.

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Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:24 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
Once trained defibs are very easy to use however the most vital aspect of their success rate is the time factor. Figures in our pack at the beach suggests that your chance of survival depends on (a) how close one is at the place your arrest occurs (b) how quickly someone competent can begin the defib protocol.

1 - 2 mins gives you a 90% chance of survival

6 mins gives you a 45% chance of survival

7 mins gives you a 30% chance of survival

^ 10 mins you have less than a 5% chance of survival.

Unless you are sitting next to one with someone who has the expertise to know what is happening and can get the defib working immediately I am not convinced they are up to all the sales pitches.


Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:12 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
Justic wrote:
Unless you are sitting next to one with someone who has the expertise to know what is happening and can get the defib working immediately I am not convinced they are up to all the sales pitches.


Backs that up. Ultimately their figures show they're great in population dense areas with a high risk of unexpected VF. In normal density areas they're not very effective due to the time constraints.

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'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so *fupping* what?' —Stephen Fry

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Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:23 pm
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
The bottom line is though that without them you have even less chance.

Statistics are statistics but life is life ..

... even at the remotest of odds.


Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:04 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Statistics are statistics but life is life ..

... even at the remotest of odds.


There is however a cutoff point where the odds are so remote it doesnt justify the financial outlay. AEDs cost a fair chunk per year for batteries and maintenance for example.

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'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so *fupping* what?' —Stephen Fry

"You like PhillBB demand facts for debate........My premise needs no facts to debate it" - Rosario on "how to look like an idiot"

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Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:41 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
you can die out there, I wouldn't want it any other way. James Ackerman (Sunshine Coast front-rower) died a couple weeks ago from a tackle. There wasn't much news about Gareth Jones the Neath halfback who dies as a result of a ruck a few years ago. Rugby union trying to hide things again no doubt, friends in the media etc.


Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:50 am
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
NewSouthWales wrote:
you can die out there, I wouldn't want it any other way. James Ackerman (Sunshine Coast front-rower) died a couple weeks ago from a tackle. There wasn't much news about Gareth Jones the Neath halfback who dies as a result of a ruck a few years ago. Rugby union trying to hide things again no doubt, friends in the media etc.


*fupp* off *dinky doo* sucker.


Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:22 pm
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
say something constructive.


Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:36 pm
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
NewSouthWales wrote:
you can die out there, I wouldn't want it any other way. James Ackerman (Sunshine Coast front-rower) died a couple weeks ago from a tackle. There wasn't much news about Gareth Jones the Neath halfback who dies as a result of a ruck a few years ago. Rugby union trying to hide things again no doubt, friends in the media etc.


Being hidden by putting it on all the main TV news and printed media you mean?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... Jones.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_u ... 457473.stm
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... id-2170792

Yeah hidden really well.

Two things are clear:- (i) you have an agenda and (ii) you haven't actually got a clue about the facts.

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'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so *fupping* what?' —Stephen Fry

"You like PhillBB demand facts for debate........My premise needs no facts to debate it" - Rosario on "how to look like an idiot"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitcomberd/


Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:19 pm
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Post Re: RL Player Dies - Cardiac Arrest
it wasn't publicised much at all, I only found out about it this week, and I was living in wales (Yorkshire automatically goes to a capital letter whereas wales doesn't, hahahahaha) during 2008, and following some rugby union. The Gwyn Jones incident in the ruck was publicised to a large degree.


Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:46 pm
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