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England poach more players 
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Post Re: England poach more players
:D if this thread was about NZRU poaching it would 10 pages long by now. :sleepy2:


Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:37 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Justic wrote:
:D if this thread was about NZRU poaching it would 10 pages long by now. :sleepy2:

10 posts, maybe. Typical Kiwi, full of self importance. You're thinking of Henson

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:40 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Troron wrote:
Right I did some of my own checking and it just shows how easily stats can be used to manipulate people. Of the players included in the list of foreign born I counted 36 for England. Sounds like a lot right? Well 20 of those were here before they were playing rugby professionally or arrived for reasons other than rugby so that reduces the list to 16 straight away. still seems like a lot? Well then you have to say what is the significance of pointing out making their debut for England? Could it be because, of those 16 remaining players, only 6 got more than 10 caps with 7 getting 5 or less. Not exactly getting much out of our poaching are we?

On top of that, only TWO got more than 15 caps. Long term projects these poaches eh?

This isn't without even going into more detail about the actual foreign born players. The vast majority moved for club rugby, not for England. Matt Stevens for example moved to England for university and then stayed, but yeah the damned RFU poached him! You then have Rokoduguni who joined for the army.

Taking out the definitely foreign born but with reasons for being here other than rugby and you end up with an even smaller list and on average since 2004 of about 8 caps per foreign player. But I'm sure you aren't interest in that little detail are you?

It's only "digging" if you're wrong and all I'm presenting are the actual facts based on actually researching it, not nationalistic bullshit and copy pasting an article. I think your responses show the basis of your argument is in nationalism not any regard for the facts.

To save you time, just go back 10 years and copy some kiwi posts in a poaching thread, you seem to be doing what we’ve all done many a time. :D I feel your pain.

If it makes you feel any better, only the strongest teams get accused of poaching, take it as a compliment. Shit teams who poach never get mentioned.

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:05 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
simondavis wrote:

Blimey. This exchange of views seems rather less about Ross Moriarty rather than you trying to ram home your own point. It doesn't reflect on you very well.... What I don't like is when national sides take a player into the national set up, play him or her, for a game, in the full knowledge that under the rules they may not play for another international side again. It happens and the likelihood of this fella gaining caps is not much.


Aye, Regan King was a good centre.


Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:27 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Troron wrote:
Hilljills wrote:
Troron can't ignore his opportunities for wee digs can he?

To clarify a few things in Gary Graham, the player highlighted at start of the thread. Scottish born, Scotland age grades to U20, moved to England at age 21, qualifies for England under residency.

Ben Vellacott - Scottish mother, has played age grade rugby for Scotland from U16.

I'll just leave this here for you. Make sure you open both eyes to read it.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... he-poacher


Says the person making a thread whose sole purpose is a dig. Gary Graham may be a poach as is Vellacott, but Vellacott is a SCOTTISH poach. Let's look at Vellacott:

- English born
- Raised in England
- Still lives in England and never lived outside it
- Went to English schools
- Went through English rugby academies
- Plays for an English club

But because his mother is Scottish and he has played Scottish age grade rugby, we are the ones poaching him? If anything it proves the Scots are trying to poach him by getting him into the age grade stuff. Also that article is tripe. "Dylan Hartley moved to England with the aim of becoming an international", no he moved to England because his *fupping* parents moved to England and he went with them. He may have had the goal of being an international but he didn't leave New Zealand of his own accord because of that. Also got to question why they use 12 years, shall I tell you why? Because 12 years conveniently encompasses the down years following the world cup in which the English rugby team were performing poorly and a large chunk of international players got in but also conveniently cuts out the years prior to the world cup. It also conveniently doesn't limit itself to more recent years where England have had some of the lowest number of foreign born players in the squad. In essence the reality is that England went through a period from 2004-2010 where we had a disproportionately large number of English internationals who were born abroad and got a few caps, most not that many. Also the article doesn't mention that moving to England solely to play rugby is NOT the same as moving to England solely to play rugby for England. With the 2nd most wealthy club system in the world, we get a lot of foreign players coming here to play rugby. That is NOT the same as poaching because it's not like the English rugby team or the RFU are going out and scouting them and enticing them over with the promise of England caps. The only player the RFU have got involved with in that was was Burgess.

So maybe before accusing others of having a wee dig you do some research so you don't come across as a nationalist pillock? I'd also point out that your own link shows the Scots as far and away worse than England so maybe throw fewer stones whilst you still live in that glass house alright?


Check out who started the thread, it wasn't me. I only came on to right some of the inaccuracies you were spouting, again!

Did it occur to you that Vellacott maybe wants to play for Scotland? Besides it's only paper talk that England are looking at him, he wasn't selected in their 6N training squad.

The Gary Graham issue is a joke and makes the RFU look ridiculous (again). The RFU have been complaining about
other nations poaching English qualified players, when as has been proved they are amongst the biggest culprits of poaching themselves. Gary Graham is a shot across the bow of the SRU who are actively seeking Scottish qualified players in England but they have made themselves look foolish by selecting a 25 year old who was playing for Jersey 8 months ago.

The RFU are hypocrites, as are you.


Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:41 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Do you think before you type? If anything vellacott is a Scottish poach, as I've pointed out. He is English through and through. He's also a big boy and you know what happens if he wants to play for Scotland? He says no to England. Funny how you mention England aren't that interested as he isn't in our training squad yet ignore the fact he isn't in Scotland training squad either...

The only hypocrite is you. You accuse England of being the worst poachers then link to a site that is not only inaccurate but shows Scotland are the worst. You say Graham is pacing whilst ignoring vellacott is a poach by Scotland. I've actually checked what I'm saying but you clearly haven't.

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:00 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Troron wrote:
Do you think before you type? If anything vellacott is a Scottish poach, as I've pointed out. He is English through and through. He's also a big boy and you know what happens if he wants to play for Scotland? He says no to England. Funny how you mention England aren't that interested as he isn't in our training squad yet ignore the fact he isn't in Scotland training squad either...

The only hypocrite is you. You accuse England of being the worst poachers then link to a site that is not only inaccurate but shows Scotland are the worst. You say Graham is pacing whilst ignoring vellacott is a poach by Scotland. I've actually checked what I'm saying but you clearly haven't.


Fella, you consistently post things which are just not true.

Accusing me of starting this thread to prove a point about England is just one. The thread was started by a Welshman who obviously sees the irony and hypocrisy of the RFU moaning about player poaching, when they have consistently done it themselves and will continue to do so.

From the Scottish POV we are fairly clear, we will continue to scout for players of Scottish heritage as our playing numbers within our own country are so low. When you consider the number of Aussies of Scottish extraction, most of NZ's South Island seems to have Scottish ancestry and there are circa 1 million Scots living in England and Wales then you can see why. We are also open about project players - Nel, Strauss and Du Preez were brought over specifically to fill positions that we had voids in.

England have far more players who have qualified to play under residency than Scotland have, we've only taken advantage of that rule 5 times (well 6 if you count the Bristolian butcher Dave Hilton! but that was back in the 90s and was underhand to say the least).

My kids were both born in England with an English mother, go to school in England and play rugby in England but they are both proud Scots and support Scotland whilst shouting Sassenach *tommy tankers* whenever England are on TV, maybe Ben Vellacott is the same? Scotland's training squad hasn't been announced yet, I think the fact that he's not yet a regular starter for Gloucester in a position that we are reasonably well stocked in might mean he doesn't get the call this time.

I look forward to the next thread that you make yourself look ridiculous in.


Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:46 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Hilljills wrote:
Troron wrote:
Do you think before you type? If anything vellacott is a Scottish poach, as I've pointed out. He is English through and through. He's also a big boy and you know what happens if he wants to play for Scotland? He says no to England. Funny how you mention England aren't that interested as he isn't in our training squad yet ignore the fact he isn't in Scotland training squad either...

The only hypocrite is you. You accuse England of being the worst poachers then link to a site that is not only inaccurate but shows Scotland are the worst. You say Graham is pacing whilst ignoring vellacott is a poach by Scotland. I've actually checked what I'm saying but you clearly haven't.


Fella, you consistently post things which are just not true.

Accusing me of starting this thread to prove a point about England is just one. The thread was started by a Welshman who obviously sees the irony and hypocrisy of the RFU moaning about player poaching, when they have consistently done it themselves and will continue to do so.

From the Scottish POV we are fairly clear, we will continue to scout for players of Scottish heritage as our playing numbers within our own country are so low. When you consider the number of Aussies of Scottish extraction, most of NZ's South Island seems to have Scottish ancestry and there are circa 1 million Scots living in England and Wales then you can see why. We are also open about project players - Nel, Strauss and Du Preez were brought over specifically to fill positions that we had voids in.

England have far more players who have qualified to play under residency than Scotland have, we've only taken advantage of that rule 5 times (well 6 if you count the Bristolian butcher Dave Hilton! but that was back in the 90s and was underhand to say the least).

My kids were both born in England with an English mother, go to school in England and play rugby in England but they are both proud Scots and support Scotland whilst shouting Sassenach *tommy tankers* whenever England are on TV, maybe Ben Vellacott is the same? Scotland's training squad hasn't been announced yet, I think the fact that he's not yet a regular starter for Gloucester in a position that we are reasonably well stocked in might mean he doesn't get the call this time.

I look forward to the next thread that you make yourself look ridiculous in.


Highlight anything I've said that isn't true, go on. Yeah I confused you with the thread starter, because that REALLY has an impact on the argument being made. England have made use of the residency rule more because, quite simply, very few foreigners will go to Scotland to play rugby at club level compared to England... That one is kinda obvious. If we are going to exclude parentage from poaching then that list of England poaches gets even smaller, a far cry from the 36 you want to pretend it is.

And if he shouts that at TV then he can play for Scotland can't he? The point is if he doesn't do that and decides to play for England then he won't be a poach by England. Funny how you are perfectly ok with an adult making a choice to play for Scotland as not poaching but if he makes the choice to play for England it is. You are the one who can't be consistent here.

Again the only one making themselves look ridiculous is you by applying one rule for England and another for Scotland and every other nation on the planet. I've already highlighted the RFU has not been involved in poaching because, unlike you, we don't send scouts round the world promising England caps to players abroad. We will cap players who are ALREADY here. Our club system brings in a lot of foreign players which is not the same as poaching. Once again, the only international who was in another country that the RFU got involved with the entice to England with the promise of international caps was Sam Burgess. We have no project players. How about you stop looking at the issue through petty nationalistic specs and look at it objectively? The fact you didn't even know over half the list on that website you linked to could not be counted as foreign players right from the bat shows you have done no research on the topic whatsoever.

Want to prove me wrong? Name the 3 most capped poached players England have had in the time frame that website says, proper poaches that is not someone who was merely born somewhere else and came to England when they were 4. Go on.

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:20 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
You can’t pick and choose your definition of poaching. Under your definition the French clubs who go to the PI’s and entice the kids to move to France to play rugby aren’t poaching, admittedly this is more blatant/flagrant than the Tuilagi/ Vunipola cases but the point stands.

Scotland have had 6 players in their history who have qualified under residency regulations, how many have England had? Off the top of my head Vunipola x 2, Hughes, Solomana, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi, Botha, Harrison, Waldrom, Armitage x 2, Corbisiero. That’s by spending only 5 mins thinking about it.

Also. the fact that the Unions own the clubs in Scotland, Wales and Ireland but not in England suits whereas in England the autonomous clubs open their cheque books and buy players from all around the globe. If the RFU were serious about not poaching then they would say that those players brought/ bought over by the clubs weren’t eligible for selection, but they don’t. RFU hiding behind their rich clubs and criticising other unions for diectly importing foreign players.

England has the largest number of registered players in the world yet has more players playing for them under residency qualification than Scotland, Wales or Ireland.


Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:41 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Hilljills wrote:
You can’t pick and choose your definition of poaching. Under your definition the French clubs who go to the PI’s and entice the kids to move to France to play rugby aren’t poaching, admittedly this is more blatant/flagrant than the Tuilagi/ Vunipola cases but the point stands.

Scotland have had 6 players in their history who have qualified under residency regulations, how many have England had? Off the top of my head Vunipola x 2, Hughes, Solomana, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi, Botha, Harrison, Waldrom, Armitage x 2, Corbisiero. That’s by spending only 5 mins thinking about it.

Also. the fact that the Unions own the clubs in Scotland, Wales and Ireland but not in England suits whereas in England the autonomous clubs open their cheque books and buy players from all around the globe. If the RFU were serious about not poaching then they would say that those players brought/ bought over by the clubs weren’t eligible for selection, but they don’t. RFU hiding behind their rich clubs and criticising other unions for diectly importing foreign players.

England has the largest number of registered players in the world yet has more players playing for them under residency qualification than Scotland, Wales or Ireland.


A widely accepted definition is luring a player from another country with the sole aim of getting them to play for yours. You are clutching at straws if you think merely including anyone not born in the country as an automatic poach. Of those "residency" players the majority you listed had been in the country since being a teenager or younger. The fact you spent 5 minutes thinking about it shows.

The RFU already has incentives in place, clubs get funding and waivers on the salary cap for producing and providing English qualified players to the team. Now tell me why should we operate by different rules to the rest of the world? You're kinda supporting what I've said, you want England to act differently to everyone else and follow a different set of rules because you are holding us to a different standard. It was the RFU that pushed for the residency time to be increased, or did you forget that? We are in favour of increasing the residency time but we are not in favour of doing it alone.

The largest number of qualified players thing is a complete red herring, the majority of them are not playing even close to Aviva standard rugby, let alone international level. Maybe if once again you looked into it, you would find that England doesn't have that many more senior registered than other countries, our numbers are inflated by the fact we register a lot of teens when other countries don't. England has roughly twice as many registered seniors as Scotland, Wales and Ireland combined yet over 6 times as many teens. The numbers are also padded out by the fact we make up 75% of the world's registered female players. But again, don't attempt to actually look at the facts, just skim the surface and start whinging again.

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:46 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
CymraegJanner wrote:
simondavis wrote:
Justic wrote:
England are busy crowing about beating the Ad's this year so they may need to poach a few players. ;)

:wtf: Simon do you really believe international coaches would purposely give a player one test just to prevent them from being eligible for another country?


No not really Justy but I have thought of players who choose for one country over another in the nationality stakes, play a few games and then disappear from sight. It's the cynic in me. Then I wonder if they would have played more games if they'd jumped the other way.

the players you talk of are adults.
they can vote
they can decide their own education path
they can get a license to pilot the worlds most easily obtainable killing machine
they can join the armed services and sign up to kill other human beings
they can be parents
surely when being paid in excess of 100k a year, they are capable of choosing which country to represent for the rest of their lives?

I'm pretty sure that they realise that the world spins on an axis as well so god bless the power of cognition.

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Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:42 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Townsends view.

Scotland are in no position to carp too much about losing Vellacott and Graham to 
England, having assimilated a vast number of foreign-born and raised players down the years. It is rather jolting, however, to have one of the big nations casting their rod in the Scottish pond. The RFU’s English Qualified Player system sees clubs handsomely rewarded for fielding a matchday squad that is 70 per cent eligible for England, which is an obvious lure for those with dual options. “It is unusual that a country like England, with all its resources and players, that players who have played age grade for Scotland are going into the England squad,” said Townsend. “But it is now the reality and probably in some ways can be seen as a positive that our players are attracting interest outside of Scotland. “It is the players’ decisions. You can understand that if you are playing in England, you are in their system, whether that is through your club or the EQP, the pressures that are on each club, that you are maybe going to be watched more by the England coaches… Broadcaster Alice Levine On Self-confidence And Imposter Syndrome Broadcaster Alice Levine talks self-criticism and cutting herself some slack Read More Brought To You By American Express® “I don’t like using the term ‘our players’, they are not ‘our players’, they played under-20s for us but they are dual qualified like a number of players are in the game. “We are part of the United Kingdom as well as being Scotland/England so a lot are going to have parentage or will have moved down south at some stage so that they can play for other countries.” Townsend said he wasn’t keen on resurrecting the A team as a vehicle for “capturing” players and tying them to Scotland. “The only way you would look at adding a Scotland A [team] would be to help your preparations,” he said. “If you were doing it for cynical reasons, first I don’t think it is right, and the players would see through it.”

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... -1-4663205


Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:24 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
And another one but this time from a players perspective.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... -1-4665609


Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:23 am
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