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England poach more players 
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Post Re: England poach more players
simondavis wrote:
Blimey. This exchange of views seems rather less about Ross Moriarty rather than you trying to ram home your own point. It doesn't reflect on you very well.... What I don't like is when national sides take a player into the national set up, play him or her, for a game, in the full knowledge that under the rules they may not play for another international side again. It happens and the likelihood of this fella gaining caps is not much.


So me making a point that this is less of a poach than Moriarty after England are once again accused of poaching reflects badly on me? We have a person born in England, raised in England, has an English parent, still living in England playing for an English club, has been through English youth academies for the club and it's a poach because his mum is Scottish and he has played some age grade rugby for them? You realise that if anything it shows the Scots are poaching.

What I don't like is how the accusations of poaching are now being extended to players who are through and through English but who other nations have an interest in. If he thinks his future is with Scotland then he can go with them. However you're saying it's fine for the Scots to poach from us but it's not fine for us to prevent that? How do you know he won't get a look in? Our current scrum halves are getting on in years and may not be around and more after the next world cup, by which time this lad will be 23 I believe.

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Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:42 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Troron wrote:
simondavis wrote:
Blimey. This exchange of views seems rather less about Ross Moriarty rather than you trying to ram home your own point. It doesn't reflect on you very well.... What I don't like is when national sides take a player into the national set up, play him or her, for a game, in the full knowledge that under the rules they may not play for another international side again. It happens and the likelihood of this fella gaining caps is not much.


So me making a point that this is less of a poach than Moriarty after England are once again accused of poaching reflects badly on me? We have a person born in England, raised in England, has an English parent, still living in England playing for an English club, has been through English youth academies for the club and it's a poach because his mum is Scottish and he has played some age grade rugby for them? You realise that if anything it shows the Scots are poaching.

What I don't like is how the accusations of poaching are now being extended to players who are through and through English but who other nations have an interest in. If he thinks his future is with Scotland then he can go with them. However you're saying it's fine for the Scots to poach from us but it's not fine for us to prevent that? How do you know he won't get a look in? Our current scrum halves are getting on in years and may not be around and more after the next world cup, by which time this lad will be 23 I believe.




Must say i would tend to agree with that. Hes also a grown man and came make his choices and live or fall by them.

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Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:57 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
England are busy crowing about beating the Ad's this year so they may need to poach a few players. ;)

:wtf: Simon do you really believe international coaches would purposely give a player one test just to prevent them from being eligible for another country?


Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:42 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Not to stop a player as such , but so as to make the player available should he be needed,
I agree I. Principle with current qualification rules but it does seem to give an impression of ownership that I find distasteful.

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Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:22 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Justic wrote:
England are busy crowing about beating the Ad's this year so they may need to poach a few players. ;)

:wtf: Simon do you really believe international coaches would purposely give a player one test just to prevent them from being eligible for another country?


No not really Justy but I have thought of players who choose for one country over another in the nationality stakes, play a few games and then disappear from sight. It's the cynic in me. Then I wonder if they would have played more games if they'd jumped the other way.

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Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:37 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
jimcardiff wrote:
Not to stop a player as such , but so as to make the player available should he be needed,
I agree I. Principle with current qualification rules but it does seem to give an impression of ownership that I find distasteful.

But in fairness said player should have that urge to want to play for their country, 1 cap is still 1 more than the majority of people will ever get. Some people have the chance to choose between countries, so they should choose wisely knowing that they might have to work bloody hard to keep the jersey.

It’s lovely being on the sidelines in this poach fight, first for everything! :thefinger:

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Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:38 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
loosechange wrote:
jimcardiff wrote:
Not to stop a player as such , but so as to make the player available should he be needed,
I agree I. Principle with current qualification rules but it does seem to give an impression of ownership that I find distasteful.

But in fairness said player should have that urge to want to play for their country, 1 cap is still 1 more than the majority of people will ever get. Some people have the chance to choose between countries, so they should choose wisely knowing that they might have to work bloody hard to keep the jersey.

It’s lovely being on the sidelines in this poach fight, first for everything! :thefinger:


NZ need to up their game, too much home grown talent. The only thing you've poached recently is a bloody egg.

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Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:41 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Troron wrote:
loosechange wrote:
jimcardiff wrote:
Not to stop a player as such , but so as to make the player available should he be needed,
I agree I. Principle with current qualification rules but it does seem to give an impression of ownership that I find distasteful.

But in fairness said player should have that urge to want to play for their country, 1 cap is still 1 more than the majority of people will ever get. Some people have the chance to choose between countries, so they should choose wisely knowing that they might have to work bloody hard to keep the jersey.

It’s lovely being on the sidelines in this poach fight, first for everything! :thefinger:


NZ need to up their game, too much home grown talent. The only thing you've poached recently is a bloody egg.

Vans, balaclavas and chloroform cost money. The NZRFU are broke.

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Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:02 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
loosechange wrote:
Vans, balaclavas and chloroform cost money. The NZRFU are broke.


Do you not have some sort of hypno-haka?

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Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Troron wrote:
loosechange wrote:
Vans, balaclavas and chloroform cost money. The NZRFU are broke.


Do you not have some sort of hypno-haka?


Personally, I think World Rugby should consider the level of the voodoo ....Bugger all to do with better rugby

Bonne Année Loosie ;)

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Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:05 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Troron can't ignore his opportunities for wee digs can he?

To clarify a few things in Gary Graham, the player highlighted at start of the thread. Scottish born, Scotland age grades to U20, moved to England at age 21, qualifies for England under residency.

Ben Vellacott - Scottish mother, has played age grade rugby for Scotland from U16.

I'll just leave this here for you. Make sure you open both eyes to read it.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... he-poacher


Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:43 pm
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Post Re: England poach more players
Hilljills wrote:
Troron can't ignore his opportunities for wee digs can he?

To clarify a few things in Gary Graham, the player highlighted at start of the thread. Scottish born, Scotland age grades to U20, moved to England at age 21, qualifies for England under residency.

Ben Vellacott - Scottish mother, has played age grade rugby for Scotland from U16.

I'll just leave this here for you. Make sure you open both eyes to read it.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... he-poacher


Says the person making a thread whose sole purpose is a dig. Gary Graham may be a poach as is Vellacott, but Vellacott is a SCOTTISH poach. Let's look at Vellacott:

- English born
- Raised in England
- Still lives in England and never lived outside it
- Went to English schools
- Went through English rugby academies
- Plays for an English club

But because his mother is Scottish and he has played Scottish age grade rugby, we are the ones poaching him? If anything it proves the Scots are trying to poach him by getting him into the age grade stuff. Also that article is tripe. "Dylan Hartley moved to England with the aim of becoming an international", no he moved to England because his *fupping* parents moved to England and he went with them. He may have had the goal of being an international but he didn't leave New Zealand of his own accord because of that. Also got to question why they use 12 years, shall I tell you why? Because 12 years conveniently encompasses the down years following the world cup in which the English rugby team were performing poorly and a large chunk of international players got in but also conveniently cuts out the years prior to the world cup. It also conveniently doesn't limit itself to more recent years where England have had some of the lowest number of foreign born players in the squad. In essence the reality is that England went through a period from 2004-2010 where we had a disproportionately large number of English internationals who were born abroad and got a few caps, most not that many. Also the article doesn't mention that moving to England solely to play rugby is NOT the same as moving to England solely to play rugby for England. With the 2nd most wealthy club system in the world, we get a lot of foreign players coming here to play rugby. That is NOT the same as poaching because it's not like the English rugby team or the RFU are going out and scouting them and enticing them over with the promise of England caps. The only player the RFU have got involved with in that was was Burgess.

So maybe before accusing others of having a wee dig you do some research so you don't come across as a nationalist pillock? I'd also point out that your own link shows the Scots as far and away worse than England so maybe throw fewer stones whilst you still live in that glass house alright?

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:10 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Keep on digging, you'll end up watching England lose in the final test down under

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:17 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
Right I did some of my own checking and it just shows how easily stats can be used to manipulate people. Of the players included in the list of foreign born I counted 36 for England. Sounds like a lot right? Well 20 of those were here before they were playing rugby professionally or arrived for reasons other than rugby so that reduces the list to 16 straight away. still seems like a lot? Well then you have to say what is the significance of pointing out making their debut for England? Could it be because, of those 16 remaining players, only 6 got more than 10 caps with 7 getting 5 or less. Not exactly getting much out of our poaching are we?

On top of that, only TWO got more than 15 caps. Long term projects these poaches eh?

This isn't without even going into more detail about the actual foreign born players. The vast majority moved for club rugby, not for England. Matt Stevens for example moved to England for university and then stayed, but yeah the damned RFU poached him! You then have Rokoduguni who joined for the army.

Taking out the definitely foreign born but with reasons for being here other than rugby and you end up with an even smaller list and on average since 2004 of about 8 caps per foreign player. But I'm sure you aren't interest in that little detail are you?

It's only "digging" if you're wrong and all I'm presenting are the actual facts based on actually researching it, not nationalistic bullshit and copy pasting an article. I think your responses show the basis of your argument is in nationalism not any regard for the facts.

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Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:10 am
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Post Re: England poach more players
simondavis wrote:
Justic wrote:
England are busy crowing about beating the Ad's this year so they may need to poach a few players. ;)

:wtf: Simon do you really believe international coaches would purposely give a player one test just to prevent them from being eligible for another country?


No not really Justy but I have thought of players who choose for one country over another in the nationality stakes, play a few games and then disappear from sight. It's the cynic in me. Then I wonder if they would have played more games if they'd jumped the other way.

the players you talk of are adults.
they can vote
they can decide their own education path
they can get a license to pilot the worlds most easily obtainable killing machine
they can join the armed services and sign up to kill other human beings
they can be parents
surely when being paid in excess of 100k a year, they are capable of choosing which country to represent for the rest of their lives?

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