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Wasps Finances 
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Post Wasps Finances
One for Tel

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... ularities/


Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:18 pm
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Post Re: Wasps Finances




The Daily Tel ( ;) ) have been tracking this for some time ...

This a starting point from them which sets the scene

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... erest.html

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:58 pm
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Post Re: Wasps Finances


The article describes the issue well and it does smell? The terms of the bond were met in disguised format, allowed the 6.5% and also in reality increased debt levels.....

Maybe not significant but the viability of the business is also 'disguised'

The following definition of statement withon tne article may help

What is 'EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization'
EBITDA stands for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. EBITDA is one indicator of a company's financial performance and is used as a proxy for the earning potential of a business, although doing so can have drawbacks. EBITDA strips out the cost of d



Read more: EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eb ... z521htrXbD

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Final input to above :

Latest result in the markets

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exch ... PUKCP.html

Interesting article about the time of interim payment etc

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/ ... h-12759835

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:17 pm
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Tony Panties wrote:


The article describes the issue well and it does smell? The terms of the bond were met in disguised format, allowed the 6.5% and also in reality increased debt levels.....

Maybe not significant but the viability of the business is also 'disguised'

The following definition of statement withon tne article may help

What is 'EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization'
EBITDA stands for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. EBITDA is one indicator of a company's financial performance and is used as a proxy for the earning potential of a business, although doing so can have drawbacks. EBITDA strips out the cost of d



Read more: EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eb ... z521htrXbD


What drawbacks are there?

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Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:25 am
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:


The article describes the issue well and it does smell? The terms of the bond were met in disguised format, allowed the 6.5% and also in reality increased debt levels.....

Maybe not significant but the viability of the business is also 'disguised'

The following definition of statement withon tne article may help

What is 'EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization'
EBITDA stands for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. EBITDA is one indicator of a company's financial performance and is used as a proxy for the earning potential of a business, although doing so can have drawbacks. EBITDA strips out the cost of d



Read more: EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eb ... z521htrXbD


What drawbacks are there?


David, imo the theory is less important in this case and I tried to highlight the position as follows :

-Fingal posted a very up to date article on Wasps finances

- I first put this into context of the initial concept of the financing and associated opinion ...always wise to consider origin

-Following that just provided some explantion of the major measurement terminology(with pros cons)

-Then ...the most up to date formal business status.... referring to the date of the Daily T article there is an accompanying fall in values (the detail provided the opportunity to click and view various timeframes incl recent fairly dramatic downturn). Not surprising the Markets hate surprises and 'inventive accounting' which raises questions of suspect practice.

-there followed the Coventry Tel article which was chosen as it surrounded the period of contention. The headline appeared alarmist but reading through it it also showed a balanced of view 'bau' and the often need for refinancing.

-an aside ....the re financing article rang a bell with me ....Toulose have just refinanced by 16% and Boudjellal ...who normally can return a profit...is now seeking to sell to a minority holding.

-The Articles chosen also reveal the extent of the 'owners' commitment ...now more than £12m and one wonders where the additional investment to right the poor performance measurement came from. The extent of a singular reliance on a particular investor is also evident.

-The whole aspect also reveals the importance, in this case Wasps, to stay in the Euro competition where they are now precariously placed!

-Finally, the root issue is the security of the anchor aspect, the Stadium. Very unlikely to be sold (as stated in the articles) but Wasps have to ensure business performance to ensure their viability (well described in the Cov Article). The bond may continue.

--------------------------

These are the facts that outline, imo, the Wasps position and is the important issue deriving from Fingal's initial post.

For me, it also describes an inventive venture in Pro Rugby and one to watch carefully.

The upcoming Bondholders review of investment as income will be interesting and apparently fundamental to futures.

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Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:49 am
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Refinancing debt in football is as much part of the game as substitutions.

What's troubling here, for me, is the scale of debt compared to potential income, it doesn't add up.

They are already sharpening the pencil on the playing budget, I think they'll struggle to refinance the commitment

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:10 am
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Tony Panties wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:


The article describes the issue well and it does smell? The terms of the bond were met in disguised format, allowed the 6.5% and also in reality increased debt levels.....

Maybe not significant but the viability of the business is also 'disguised'

The following definition of statement withon tne article may help

What is 'EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization'
EBITDA stands for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. EBITDA is one indicator of a company's financial performance and is used as a proxy for the earning potential of a business, although doing so can have drawbacks. EBITDA strips out the cost of d



Read more: EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eb ... z521htrXbD


What drawbacks are there?


David, imo the theory is less important in this case and I tried to highlight the position as follows :

-Fingal posted a very up to date article on Wasps finances

- I first put this into context of the initial concept of the financing and associated opinion ...always wise to consider origin

-Following that just provided some explantion of the major measurement terminology(with pros cons)

-Then ...the most up to date formal business status.... referring to the date of the Daily T article there is an accompanying fall in values (the detail provided the opportunity to click and view various timeframes incl recent fairly dramatic downturn). Not surprising the Markets hate surprises and 'inventive accounting' which raises questions of suspect practice.

-there followed the Coventry Tel article which was chosen as it surrounded the period of contention. The headline appeared alarmist but reading through it it also showed a balanced of view 'bau' and the often need for refinancing.

-an aside ....the re financing article rang a bell with me ....Toulose have just refinanced by 16% and Boudjellal ...who normally can return a profit...is now seeking to sell to a minority holding.

-The Articles chosen also reveal the extent of the 'owners' commitment ...now more than £12m and one wonders where the additional investment to right the poor performance measurement came from. The extent of a singular reliance on a particular investor is also evident.

-The whole aspect also reveals the importance, in this case Wasps, to stay in the Euro competition where they are now precariously placed!

-Finally, the root issue is the security of the anchor aspect, the Stadium. Very unlikely to be sold (as stated in the articles) but Wasps have to ensure business performance to ensure their viability (well described in the Cov Article). The bond may continue.

--------------------------

These are the facts that outline, imo, the Wasps position and is the important issue deriving from Fingal's initial post.

For me, it also describes an inventive venture in Pro Rugby and one to watch carefully.

The upcoming Bondholders review of investment as income will be interesting and apparently fundamental to futures.


Answer the question please? It's not theory, it's reality. Everyone thinks you are the expert on business and finance here, so please prove it? ;)

I agree that the accounting slip is a side issue. I have had people add cash on hand to the numerator of EBITDA calcs before, so that does not surprise me.

Question 1- Why is a cash flow ratio being used for subordinated debt? What do you think of the ratio set? Is it commercially reasonable?

Question 2- What collateral rights do holders have?

These 2 questions will frame the legal fight that will inevitably take place.

I have financed teams in the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL, and have seen this happen before. I have also financed rock band tours also...that was eye opening...

Thank you

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:33 am
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Langland Exile wrote:

Answer the question please? It's not theory, it's reality. Everyone thinks you are the expert on business and finance here, so please prove it? ;)

I agree that the accounting slip is a side issue. I have had people add cash on hand to the numerator of EBITDA calcs before, so that does not surprise me.

Question 1- Why is a cash flow ratio being used for subordinated debt? What do you think of the ratio set? Is it commercially reasonable?

Question 2- What collateral rights do holders have?

These 2 questions will frame the legal fight that will inevitably take place.

I have financed teams in the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL, and have seen this happen before. I have also financed rock band tours also...that was eye opening...

Thank you

I suspect you already know the answers to you own questions and have a reason for them which I'll leave alone.
Q1 - an asset is only worth what someone is going to pay for it, and regardless of valuation, if noone wants it, the ricoh is worthless, hence the value of the bonds is based on the ability to pay the interest.

Q2 - the stadium. see q1, and why there won't be a concerted effort to come into a legal battle for the default

they banked on success and are losing IMO

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:10 am
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:


The article describes the issue well and it does smell? The terms of the bond were met in disguised format, allowed the 6.5% and also in reality increased debt levels.....

Maybe not significant but the viability of the business is also 'disguised'

The following definition of statement withon tne article may help

What is 'EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization'
EBITDA stands for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. EBITDA is one indicator of a company's financial performance and is used as a proxy for the earning potential of a business, although doing so can have drawbacks. EBITDA strips out the cost of d



Read more: EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eb ... z521htrXbD


What drawbacks are there?


David, imo the theory is less important in this case and I tried to highlight the position as follows :

-Fingal posted a very up to date article on Wasps finances

- I first put this into context of the initial concept of the financing and associated opinion ...always wise to consider origin

-Following that just provided some explantion of the major measurement terminology(with pros cons)

-Then ...the most up to date formal business status.... referring to the date of the Daily T article there is an accompanying fall in values (the detail provided the opportunity to click and view various timeframes incl recent fairly dramatic downturn). Not surprising the Markets hate surprises and 'inventive accounting' which raises questions of suspect practice.

-there followed the Coventry Tel article which was chosen as it surrounded the period of contention. The headline appeared alarmist but reading through it it also showed a balanced of view 'bau' and the often need for refinancing.

-an aside ....the re financing article rang a bell with me ....Toulose have just refinanced by 16% and Boudjellal ...who normally can return a profit...is now seeking to sell to a minority holding.

-The Articles chosen also reveal the extent of the 'owners' commitment ...now more than £12m and one wonders where the additional investment to right the poor performance measurement came from. The extent of a singular reliance on a particular investor is also evident.

-The whole aspect also reveals the importance, in this case Wasps, to stay in the Euro competition where they are now precariously placed!

-Finally, the root issue is the security of the anchor aspect, the Stadium. Very unlikely to be sold (as stated in the articles) but Wasps have to ensure business performance to ensure their viability (well described in the Cov Article). The bond may continue.

--------------------------

These are the facts that outline, imo, the Wasps position and is the important issue deriving from Fingal's initial post.

For me, it also describes an inventive venture in Pro Rugby and one to watch carefully.

The upcoming Bondholders review of investment as income will be interesting and apparently fundamental to futures.


Answer the question please? It's not theory, it's reality. Everyone thinks you are the expert on business and finance here, so please prove it? ;)

I agree that the accounting slip is a side issue. I have had people add cash on hand to the numerator of EBITDA calcs before, so that does not surprise me.

Question 1- Why is a cash flow ratio being used for subordinated debt? What do you think of the ratio set? Is it commercially reasonable?

Question 2- What collateral rights do holders have?

These 2 questions will frame the legal fight that will inevitably take place.

I have financed teams in the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL, and have seen this happen before. I have also financed rock band tours also...that was eye opening...

Thank you


I thought that your Q related to EBITDA theory and application where a detailed explanation was provided….as ‘What drawbacks are there’ seemed to relate to that comment and general explanation.??

-Bondholders have primary default rights in the case of failure, hence the importance of the Stadium and realising it’s value. The risk and likelihood is well detailed in e.g the Cov Tel article. Subordinated debt is a lower priority, hence subordinated debt attracts higher interest.

The EBITDA ratio (used to assess capability to pay interest levels) is excessive in terms of recent evidence (again has been outlined) which also includes the mentioned likelihood for refinancing.
I believe that the articles and evidence are sufficient for info in this forum.
I don’t pretend to be a financial expert, my métier was Marketing and Sales (in addition to direct practitioner experience managing business streams) and being responsible for some of the world’s biggest Multinational Corporations clients. As the Marketing Executive involved I had the call on detailed financial and contract expertise as required. I had sufficient business training to represent the front line of Marketing negotiation and personal credibility at that level.
Apart from my career I have had a long term project interest in ‘Pro Rugby as a Business’ and hence my interest in Fingal’s post and comments related to other Pro Rugby examples.

I have no interest in a pissing competition and the more detailed business aspects of the subject don’t really belong here and the subject should be detailed and a general level?
Looking forward to a Xmas weekend, Joyeux Noël!

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:01 am
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

PS Which way do you think the subsequent assessment of deficient practice and whether investment will subsequently be treated as income will go?

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:23 am
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
CymraegJanner wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:

Answer the question please? It's not theory, it's reality. Everyone thinks you are the expert on business and finance here, so please prove it? ;)

I agree that the accounting slip is a side issue. I have had people add cash on hand to the numerator of EBITDA calcs before, so that does not surprise me.

Question 1- Why is a cash flow ratio being used for subordinated debt? What do you think of the ratio set? Is it commercially reasonable?

Question 2- What collateral rights do holders have?

These 2 questions will frame the legal fight that will inevitably take place.
I have financed teams in the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL, and have seen this happen before. I have also financed rock band tours also...that was eye opening...

Thank you

I suspect you already know the answers to you own questions and have a reason for them which I'll leave alone.
Q1 - an asset is only worth what someone is going to pay for it, and regardless of valuation, if noone wants it, the ricoh is worthless, hence the value of the bonds is based on the ability to pay the interest.

Q2 - the stadium. see q1, and why there won't be a concerted effort to come into a legal battle for the default

they banked on success and are losing IMO


CJ, I was asking some of the questions as I have never worked in the UK, and things could be different there versus the US, as they are with receivership versus bankruptcy etc, the latter being more common here.

Over here, the stadium would not be a part of the deal but it might be over there, but normally the real property assets are held in a different entity, (even if owned), and would not form part of a collateral package. If there were cash flow covenants in a deal like this, I would expect them to be about 1.1x:1. Also, for this type of deal over here, the covenants related to the value of the team, not any cash flow measure. This can be hard to establish, but as all deals require ratification by the governing board of each sport, which is controlled by other owners, there is some degree of consistency, albeit run like a boys club which does not let in anyone it doesn't like.

I have never worked in the UK as I say, but subordinated debt here is often unsecured so I am not sure of the rights of the holders. Usually the only real assets are the players, and the contracts to receive TV monies etc.. The stadium if often owned by a municipal entity as in the case of the Liberty, (don't hear of offers to buy that any more ;) ).

So unless there is collateral, the bondholders could be in a very weak position, and all they could do is force an auction of the team, or try to foreclose on any rights they have. You normally will see a prepackaged bankruptcy deal where debt is crammed down and traded for equity.

Tricky...as the team has been successful so things are not likely to get much better.

Club Rugby has yet to find a real viable commercial model (outside of Exeter that is)..

Happy Christmas to all...

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:26 pm
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Langland Exile wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:

Answer the question please? It's not theory, it's reality. Everyone thinks you are the expert on business and finance here, so please prove it? ;)

I agree that the accounting slip is a side issue. I have had people add cash on hand to the numerator of EBITDA calcs before, so that does not surprise me.

Question 1- Why is a cash flow ratio being used for subordinated debt? What do you think of the ratio set? Is it commercially reasonable?

Question 2- What collateral rights do holders have?

These 2 questions will frame the legal fight that will inevitably take place.
I have financed teams in the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL, and have seen this happen before. I have also financed rock band tours also...that was eye opening...

Thank you

I suspect you already know the answers to you own questions and have a reason for them which I'll leave alone.
Q1 - an asset is only worth what someone is going to pay for it, and regardless of valuation, if noone wants it, the ricoh is worthless, hence the value of the bonds is based on the ability to pay the interest.

Q2 - the stadium. see q1, and why there won't be a concerted effort to come into a legal battle for the default

they banked on success and are losing IMO


CJ, I was asking some of the questions as I have never worked in the UK, and things could be different there versus the US, as they are with receivership versus bankruptcy etc, the latter being more common here.

Over here, the stadium would not be a part of the deal but it might be over there, but normally the real property assets are held in a different entity, (even if owned), and would not form part of a collateral package. If there were cash flow covenants in a deal like this, I would expect them to be about 1.1x:1. Also, for this type of deal over here, the covenants related to the value of the team, not any cash flow measure. This can be hard to establish, but as all deals require ratification by the governing board of each sport, which is controlled by other owners, there is some degree of consistency, albeit run like a boys club which does not let in anyone it doesn't like.

I have never worked in the UK as I say, but subordinated debt here is often unsecured so I am not sure of the rights of the holders. Usually the only real assets are the players, and the contracts to receive TV monies etc.. The stadium if often owned by a municipal entity as in the case of the Liberty, (don't hear of offers to buy that any more ;) ).

So unless there is collateral, the bondholders could be in a very weak position, and all they could do is force an auction of the team, or try to foreclose on any rights they have. You normally will see a prepackaged bankruptcy deal where debt is crammed down and traded for equity.

Tricky...as the team has been successful so things are not likely to get much better.

Club Rugby has yet to find a real viable commercial model (outside of Exeter that is)..

Happy Christmas to all...


David

I did answer your further points

In addition to your reply to CJ post .....did you read the Cov Tel article I provided?

It does deal in some detail with the issues incl the Stadium asset play in the affair

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/ ... h-12759835


Another point I would make is yr point that often people add investment to counter concerns, the Daily Tel article shows how this was suspect accounting based on the measurement issue and that is why it was called into question and corrected which fouled the terms and is an item of important follow up to maybe change the terms.

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:14 pm
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Post Re: Wasps Finances
Tony Panties wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:

Answer the question please? It's not theory, it's reality. Everyone thinks you are the expert on business and finance here, so please prove it? ;)

I agree that the accounting slip is a side issue. I have had people add cash on hand to the numerator of EBITDA calcs before, so that does not surprise me.

Question 1- Why is a cash flow ratio being used for subordinated debt? What do you think of the ratio set? Is it commercially reasonable?

Question 2- What collateral rights do holders have?

These 2 questions will frame the legal fight that will inevitably take place.
I have financed teams in the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL, and have seen this happen before. I have also financed rock band tours also...that was eye opening...

Thank you

I suspect you already know the answers to you own questions and have a reason for them which I'll leave alone.
Q1 - an asset is only worth what someone is going to pay for it, and regardless of valuation, if noone wants it, the ricoh is worthless, hence the value of the bonds is based on the ability to pay the interest.

Q2 - the stadium. see q1, and why there won't be a concerted effort to come into a legal battle for the default

they banked on success and are losing IMO


CJ, I was asking some of the questions as I have never worked in the UK, and things could be different there versus the US, as they are with receivership versus bankruptcy etc, the latter being more common here.

Over here, the stadium would not be a part of the deal but it might be over there, but normally the real property assets are held in a different entity, (even if owned), and would not form part of a collateral package. If there were cash flow covenants in a deal like this, I would expect them to be about 1.1x:1. Also, for this type of deal over here, the covenants related to the value of the team, not any cash flow measure. This can be hard to establish, but as all deals require ratification by the governing board of each sport, which is controlled by other owners, there is some degree of consistency, albeit run like a boys club which does not let in anyone it doesn't like.

I have never worked in the UK as I say, but subordinated debt here is often unsecured so I am not sure of the rights of the holders. Usually the only real assets are the players, and the contracts to receive TV monies etc.. The stadium if often owned by a municipal entity as in the case of the Liberty, (don't hear of offers to buy that any more ;) ).

So unless there is collateral, the bondholders could be in a very weak position, and all they could do is force an auction of the team, or try to foreclose on any rights they have. You normally will see a prepackaged bankruptcy deal where debt is crammed down and traded for equity.

Tricky...as the team has been successful so things are not likely to get much better.

Club Rugby has yet to find a real viable commercial model (outside of Exeter that is)..

Happy Christmas to all...


David

I did answer your further points

In addition to your reply to CJ post .....did you read the Cov Tel article I provided?

It does deal in some detail with the issues incl the Stadium asset play in the affair

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/ ... h-12759835


Another point I would make is yr point that often people add investment to counter concerns, the Daily Tel article shows how this was suspect accounting based on the measurement issue and that is why it was called into question and corrected which fouled the terms and is an item of important follow up to maybe change the terms.


Thank you, I didn't read any of the press articles.

This is a property deal, so nobody in their right mind would try to pay that off from cashflow, or be expected to. Only the WRU is dumb enough to pay off the stadium debt rather than reinvest in the game/business.

They will get that refinanced easily...unless the economy tanks..if I were them I would separate the entities.

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Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:02 pm
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