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England's 'Attitude' to games!! 
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
Cymru am beth- May i say a very thoughtful and honest assessment from a Welsh supporter, well done and are you feeling alright, because most Welsh posters don't do the analytical stuff, but again spot on!


Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:17 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
englandworldbeaters wrote:
Cymru am beth- May i say a very thoughtful and honest assessment from a Welsh supporter, well done and are you feeling alright, because most Welsh posters don't do the analytical stuff, but again spot on!


Just saying what I see. We don't seem to deal with being really good or really bad very well. Both victories and defeats seem to get to us. Mind you, I'm not completely doing down my team. I still feel that it is the confidence that we lack and simply need a bit more imagination in our approach.


Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:50 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
englandworldbeaters wrote:
Cymru am beth- May i say a very thoughtful and honest assessment from a Welsh supporter, well done and are you feeling alright, because most Welsh posters don't do the analytical stuff, but again spot on!


Ha ha, analytical my left foot, from the guy that thought that Wales had only beaten England 5 times in the last 22 meetings, when in fact Wales won in 93,99,05,07,08,09.

Overall Wales are beating England 53 wins to 51 in tournement play, is that analytical enough for you ?

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:12 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
trampie wrote:
englandworldbeaters wrote:
Cymru am beth- May i say a very thoughtful and honest assessment from a Welsh supporter, well done and are you feeling alright, because most Welsh posters don't do the analytical stuff, but again spot on!


Ha ha, analytical my left foot, from the guy that thought that Wales had only beaten England 5 times in the last 22 meetings, when in fact Wales won in 93,99,05,07,08,09.

Overall Wales are beating England 53 wins to 51 in tournement play, is that analytical enough for you ?


The thing is though tramps, and it pains me to say it.

93, if I remember was 10-9,
99 came from a Scott Gibbs last minute try and Jenkins conversion,
05, was from Gavins boot,
07 to be fair was a good game, and the only one I can remember that Wales looked comfortable in and the scoreline flattered England in this one (although we lost *fupping* badly in the lead up to the WC though).
08, was a second half comeback - again not a comfortable watch.
I can't remember 09 (even though I was there!) but I seem to remember Worsely played well that match.

What my point is though, for all of those games, Wales played out of their skin, but in few of them, really looked like they were going and controlling the game. There were few moments where it wan't edge of the seat. The 07 match was an anomaly really, a game where we played really well, but had no other 6N to speak of as such. Whilst I must say that I do feel the old 'So long as we beat the English' thing, it demonstrates something about our attitude that stops us from taking that next step. Certainly this is how I see it from a fans perspective.


Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:24 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
Cymru am byth wrote:
I can't remember 09 (even though I was there!) but I seem to remember Worsely played well that match.


In my view, the last really good game Wales played .............. looked comfortable and coasted.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:31 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
The only thing that matters is winning, the objective is not to win a game by a 20 point margin or by a 50 point margin, the objective is to win .

Wales do not compete as well as England on a World stage in rugby, but Wales are Englands equals head to head, in football Scotland are not as good as England on the World stage but head to head they are about equal.

In rugby one of the most important and vital games an Englishman will play in is an international against Wales, in football one of the most important and vital matches an Englishmen would play in would be an international against Scotland.
From an English players point of view these are the bigest games he will ever play in, apart from a possible World Cup final itself, the English will try their vain hardest to win these games they will give 110% , yet we match them head to head because we have the right mental attitude when we play England, not being rude, we have the attitude of 'we are not going to let those b*****s beat us, if we can help it' , mentally we dont have that full on attitude against the other top rugby nations, we try our hardest, train and prepare well but we havent got the mental attitude that we have when we play the old enermy.

England take the field against Wales , NZ and SA with the same attitude, we can win, we will win, we are going to win, Wales have that attitude against England but when Wales play NZ and SA we have the attitude we will do our best, we dont expect to win but we will try.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:48 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
trampie wrote:
The only thing that matters is winning, the objective is not to win a game by a 20 point margin or by a 50 point margin, the objective is to win .

Wales do not compete as well as England on a World stage in rugby, but Wales are Englands equals head to head, in football Scotland are not as good as England on the World stage but head to head they are about equal.

In rugby one of the most important and vital games an Englishman will play in is an international against Wales, in football one of the most important and vital matches an Englishmen would play in would be an international against Scotland.
From an English players point of view these are the bigest games he will ever play in, apart from a possible World Cup final itself, the English will try their vain hardest to win these games they will give 110% , yet we match them head to head because we have the right mental attitude when we play England, not being rude, we have the attitude of 'we are not going to let those b*****s beat us, if we can help it' , mentally we dont have that full on attitude against the other top rugby nations, we try our hardest, train and prepare well but we havent got the mental attitude that we have when we play the old enermy.

England take the field against Wales , NZ and SA with the same attitude, we can win, we will win, we are going to win, Wales have that attitude against England but when Wales play NZ and SA we have the attitude we will do our best, we dont expect to win but we will try.


Not sure I agree with you there about the football. I think that Wales V England football for as long as I can remember has always been Englands game. Scotland V England has been more equal but again, England usually have the edge. Though I don't profess to having seen many Wales v England matches. England football and Wales rugby are quite similar in that they seem to have this weight of expectation on them, that hinders them. There is also this unrealistic feeling of them deserving the title of worlds best, despite probably not having been up there with the worlds best for 40 years.

I completely agree with you about the game being about winning and getting results. And I can't explain how happy I was when Gavin Henson put that kick over in 05. But I think that despite Wales have looked like the better team, the team with more imagination and the better players, the team that can score tries, but, Englands attitude and inteligence have countered the Welsh naivety. For example, Wales V England 2003 in the WC, Wales IMO should have won that match, and from what I can remember it was the pragmatism of the English (Catt mainly) that allowed us to be pinned back for England to kick the points.

A victory is a victory as you say, but when Wales have beaten England (or any other top team for that matter) it has often been a grind, where whilst we may have played the 'better' rugby, we don't seem to kick the points to form a basis for us to work from. Even against SA, 3 tries to 1, but we still lost.


Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:14 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
Im not comparing Wales to England in football, just Wales to England in rugby our national game and Wales to England in football {England and Scotlands national game}.

If I was comparing Wales to England in football I would have told you that Wales would have won the 1934 Worl Cup if they had entered as it was beneath the British teams to enter at the time because the British teams were far better than the rest of the World and Wales was far and away the best of British team going into that world Cup, therfore Wales would have won it.
In 1958 Wales hammered Brazil in the quarters but lost 1-0 because Wales had no centre forward, because Wales had the greatest player in the World at the time in Juventus player John Charles, Charles was kicked out of the tournie by one of the favourites Hungary, when Wales put them out of the comp{the Hungarians had put six past England at Wembley a few years earlier}.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:45 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
Im not knocking England, Englands sporting arrogance, their determination and will to win is to be admired, it could be said England over achieve in sport because they tend to have the correct sporting attitude.

Very few Englishmen would feature at the very top of All Time Great lists for the greatest ever players in rugby, football, cricket etc.
Wales in rugby and Scotland in football tend to produce better more skillful players but struggle to be able to put out a team full of top players on the field due to being small countries and therefore prone to a lack of strength in depth.
After England controversially won the 1966 football World Cup, England were still unbeaten when they played Scotland at Wembley in 1967, the Scots always proving to be more than a match for England over the years, the game was billed as being for the unofficial World title as England could not claim to be the World champions without beating their greatest rivals, the build up to the game was huge in the newspapers, the English knew the Scots were better players man for man although they were World champs, like lots of English teams in various sports they relied on team work as opposed to skill, the English fought their team work and commitment would see them through against Scotland but just like Wales against England in rugby the Scots in football are able to get the right mental attitude and Scotland beat them 3-2 at Wembley, Jimmy Baxter famously telling Bobby Moore I bet you I will nutmeg you the next time I get the ball and he did and then they agreed a double or quits on the field and he did it again, infairness to Bobby Charlton and his England team mates as the English press at the time they admitted that Scotland were better than them and they were World Champs in name only.
This story underlines that these matches are huge for English players,whether it be Wales in rugby or Scotland in football, they will try as hard against us as anyone else in the World, this is not a reflection on England {good on them for having the right attitude} its a poor reflection on us, that we have the correct mental attitude against England but not against other top rugby nations, if we did and we happened to have a good team then we would have a similar record against the Southern hemisphere rugby teams and World Cup record as England do.

Dont fall ino the trap of thinking England dont care about playing Wales, having read scores of autobiograhies from players past and present, England want to beat Wales in rugby as much if not more than anyone else, therefore if we can match England {historically} why cant we do better against the rest ?, its because we dont have a strong self belief against the rest, we have a small country attitude and only get positive against the old enermy, England have a big country attitude.{But they till cant beat us more than we beat them 8)

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:52 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
trampie wrote:
Im not comparing Wales to England in football, just Wales to England in rugby our national game and Wales to England in football {England and Scotlands national game}.

If I was comparing Wales to England in football I would have told you that Wales would have won the 1934 Worl Cup if they had entered as it was beneath the British teams to enter at the time because the British teams were far better than the rest of the World and Wales was far and away the best of British team going into that world Cup, therfore Wales would have won it.
In 1958 Wales hammered Brazil in the quarters but lost 1-0 because Wales had no centre forward, because Wales had the greatest player in the World at the time in Juventus player John Charles, Charles was kicked out of the tournie by one of the favourites Hungary, when Wales put them out of the comp{the Hungarians had put six past England at Wembley a few years earlier}.


Sorry should read Scotland to England.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:53 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
Trampie- But only England have a World cup in their locker, while Wales just can't seem to get out of their group at World cup, and as for analytical, well, thats 6 out of 22, which is still a ratio of nearly 3-1 even with the recent purple patch Wales went through a few years ago. As Cymru also said other teams try harder against England than they do against Wales because we are the former 'Colonial ruler'. Which is possibly the reason why the Welsh love to beat us, because well, i don't know how to say this, but we're not former rulers! No we're current.


Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:55 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
We fight the good fight, we play fair, you cheat, we would rather not win if it meant cheating.
You only win when you cheat.

Hence the well known chant, same old England always cheating, same old England always cheating.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:59 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
There is no denying that England are desperate to beat Wales in rugby, absolutely desperate {and the English are desperate to beat the Scots in football}, but despite having a population consisting of millions and millions more people than Wales, England can do no better than parity on the pitch.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:03 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
Trampie- So England cheat?

A little green eyed and one eyed there old son, but lets say, just for arguements sake you're right, which i don't believe, why don't Wales do the same, i.e. cheat? and they too might have a few more trophys in that cabinet. But cheat, or play fair the outcomes always the same for the 'Principality' because the first flight home after the Group matches of any tournament ( if you qualify that is) has the Welsh team, with their Fair play stckers, going HOME! while England, cheating or otherwise get the big prize (sometimes) . As for wanting to beat Wales at Rugby, well a ratio of 3-1 isn't a bad record since 1990, and as for beating Scotland at Football. Come on, we're bad, but not sad! By the way keep up the Welsh 'Tradition' of Honourable defeat agianst AB's. I think you'll be feeling quite smug when they beat you, with all that fair play, trouble is you can't even beat Fiji at home. Bad luck i say, while others might say something else.


Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:24 pm
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Post Re: England's 'Attitude' to games!!
englandworldbeaters wrote:
Trampie- So England cheat?

A little green eyed and one eyed there old son, but lets say, just for arguements sake you're right, which i don't believe, why don't Wales do the same, i.e. cheat? and they too might have a few more trophys in that cabinet. But cheat, or play fair the outcomes always the same for the 'Principality' because the first flight home after the Group matches of any tournament ( if you qualify that is) has the Welsh team, with their Fair play stckers, going HOME! while England, cheating or otherwise get the big prize (sometimes) . As for wanting to beat Wales at Rugby, well a ratio of 3-1 isn't a bad record since 1990, and as for beating Scotland at Football. Come on, we're bad, but not sad! By the way keep up the Welsh 'Tradition' of Honourable defeat agianst AB's. I think you'll be feeling quite smug when they beat you, with all that fair play, trouble is you can't even beat Fiji at home. Bad luck i say, while others might say something else.


Its our national make up 'englandworldbeaters', fair play is in our DNA {generalising of course}, Chwarae Teg is the Welsh word for fairplay, thats why we are a socialist country and you a capitalist one, thats why we were the first country ever {according to some reports}to have an equal number of women in our parliment as men, its because of fairplay we had laws giving a women half her husbands property if they divorced after seven years and that was over a thousand years ago and after the death of the head of the household his wealth did not go just to the eldest son, it was shared .
When England formed a huge army including soldiers from parts of France and the Danish navy, they tried to finish off the Welsh problem but lost, they got stuck in the bottom of a valley in the rains and the Welsh swopped down and gave them a kicking, on the way back home the retreating beaten English army did terrible atrocities blinding prisoners and burning down places of worship, some Welsh wanted to go over the border and do the same back but it was decided that we were better than that and we did not want to run the risk of upsetting God by lowering ourselves to the same standard.

In a nutshell we are different to you, we think differently, we have different values, win at all costs is your thing {and others}, its not ours.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:46 pm
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