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England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ 
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Post England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
Saw this and thought oh no dont .................... but its really not a bad piece by Mick Cleary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... eries.html

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Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:11 pm
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
Sleeper wrote:
Saw this and thought oh no dont .................... but its really not a bad piece by Mick Cleary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... eries.html


Johnson is one guy that would have the respect of all rugby supporters the world round. He was a colossus of a man on the field and a great leader. Would go down in my book as one of the great locks of all time and leader.

As a coach though......hmmmm, not so sure.

Johnson has his head in the sand if he thinks the test against Aussie will mean anything come the Northern autumn tests.

That Aussie team of late have been playing a completely different style of game than they were a few months ago, and at a pace some 25 - 30% faster than when the English played them.

I think the English are going to get a rude awakening as to how far off the pace they are, both skill and fitness wise.

I'm not sure what the TV coverage was like of the pre match warm up for the Aus v Eng game when Eng won. But in NZ on the Rugby Channel we had live footage of the English warm up. And to be frank I was appalled at the skill level.

The camera watched the English team doing a simple passing drill for about 2 - 3 minutes, something you would learn to do as a 5 or 6 year old. In that time there were about 4 or 5 drops balls, the drill was done at about 1/4 pace, and the forwards, even the #8 Nick Easter I think it was??, looked like they hadn't touched a ball before let alone being able to pass off both hands.

I'm not just having a cheap shot at the English, as much fun as that is, but I was genuinely shocked.

If the English come out and try and win the game they will lose by 25+ easy as it will open up for the AB's. If they come out and try to limit the margin that they will lose by and play negatively, which is the norm when NH teams play the AB's, then they could keep it within 10 points.

The AB's will create at least 3 or 4 try scoring chances in each half and you would expect them to take at least half of them. How many try scoring chances will the Eng create, and more importantly how many chances will their skills allow them to take once created??


Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:36 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
The English don't plan to pass the ball !!

They are hoping to bully the Aussies up front but haven't come to the realisation that they won't be able to because of the new breakdown interpretations!!

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Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:02 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
ABdomin8 wrote:
Sleeper wrote:
Saw this and thought oh no dont .................... but its really not a bad piece by Mick Cleary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... eries.html


Johnson is one guy that would have the respect of all rugby supporters the world round. He was a colossus of a man on the field and a great leader. Would go down in my book as one of the great locks of all time and leader.

As a coach though......hmmmm, not so sure.

just as well he isn't a coach, then

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Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:08 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
ABdomin8 wrote:
Johnson has his head in the sand if he thinks the test against Aussie will mean anything come the Northern autumn tests.


Whoa steady, it does mean something, the Aussies were beaten and as he says; "sets great store on his own side's 21-20 summer win over Australia".............................. not too sure anyone has their head in the sand at all, most level headed folk know only too well what needs be done. Not sure either what you would have him say, would it pacify you for him and others to say we dont stand a chance?

ABdomin8 wrote:
The camera watched the English team doing a simple passing drill for about 2 - 3 minutes, something you would learn to do as a 5 or 6 year old. In that time there were about 4 or 5 drops balls, the drill was done at about 1/4 pace, and the forwards, even the #8 Nick Easter I think it was??, looked like they hadn't touched a ball before let alone being able to pass off both hands.


Some sides warm up/prepare different to others, some sides leave their game plan in the gym or in the pre match warm, not too sure that the Aussies superior warm up did em much good, afterall they didnt win? :scratch:

I suppose what the Aussie win and the 3N's showed us is simply that England are capable of taking 3 tests from 4 in the Autumn, I'm not saying they will but 3 out of 4 aint an unrealistic target, particularly so after seeing the frailties within the Aussie and Saffer sides which it could be argued made the AB's look better than they really are .................... dunno! And, based on the summer tour and the 3N's I see bugger all to scare most 6N sides when they play Aus and SA! Again, I'm not saying England will beat the AB's, I dont think they will but any progress will be measured in the manner of any defeat.

ABdomin8 wrote:
As a coach though......hmmmm, not so sure.


He aint doing too much hands on stuff!

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Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:19 pm
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
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Whoa steady, it does mean something, the Aussies were beaten and as he says; "sets great store on his own side's 21-20 summer win over Australia".............................. not too sure anyone has their head in the sand at all, most level headed folk know only too well what needs be done. Not sure either what you would have him say, would it pacify you for him and others to say we dont stand a chance?


Yep I agree sleeper, of course Johnson has to be confidant I understand that, but if you look at the style/game plan that Aussie used against Eng its not even close to the style they were playing towards the end of the 3N's.

The English simply could not live with the pace of the game played by any of the 3N teams over the last 3 or 4 games of the 3N's. If Johnson is hanging his hat on that one game, then like I said his team will get a rude awakening.

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Some sides warm up/prepare different to others, some sides leave their game plan in the gym or in the pre match warm, not too sure that the Aussies superior warm up did em much good, afterall they didnt win?


What a load of rubbish, no team warms up by dropping the ball throughout their warm ups. Like someone else pointed out, I suppose its irrelevant because the English rarely pass the ball!

Eng might beat Aussie and SA in the autumn tests, and that's because Aus and SA don't have the same "every game is a must win" attitude that the ABs do, but thats not what my comments were about. My comments were relating to Johnsons idea that because his boys beat a woeful Aussie team 6 months ago they have the fitness, skill and ability to live with the AB's. They don't.

And my comments about the warm up were again relating to the AB's, not Aussie. With the level of individual skill the Eng team currently possess they won't ever beat the AB's. You have to be able to catch and pass the ball for a start.

If Johnson has no hands on coaching role but is responsible for the teams performance then he either needs to strap on his boots and get on the training pitch or ditch his skills and fitness coaches and employ some new ones.

Like I said earlier, if they go out with their typical negative game plan at the break down and get away with it they might keep the game within 10 points. If they get blown off the park for being negative or they actually try and win the game they will be beaten by 25+.


Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:20 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
ABdomin8 wrote:
Yep I agree sleeper, of course Johnson has to be confidant I understand that, but if you look at the style/game plan that Aussie used against Eng its not even close to the style they were playing towards the end of the 3N's.


Old Army saying AB .................. "no plan survives contact with the enemy"! You imply the Aussies are slaves to a game plan, be barmy IMO to stick hard and fast to something which might not work .......... that was Englands downfall post 2003. Of course, Englands game plan/style in the summer internationals was different to that played in the previous 2 seasons, not by much I would agree but miles more economical with far less breaches of discipline, some stuff this summer worked and some didnt, and I dont interpret Englands current manner of play with a world beating side .............. you're reading something wrong somewhere!

ABdomin8 wrote:
If Johnson is hanging his hat on that one game, then like I said his team will get a rude awakening.


Not sure he said that or even implied it but hey, interpret what he is reported as having said as you wish!

ABdomin8 wrote:
The English simply could not live with the pace of the game played by any of the 3N teams over the last 3 or 4 games of the 3N's.


I have to disagree, what was apparent during the 3N's was that the NH has little to fear from the Ausies and SA, they were poor.

ABdomin8 wrote:
Eng might beat Aussie and SA in the autumn tests, and that's because Aus and SA don't have the same "every game is a must win" attitude that the ABs do, but thats not what my comments were about. My comments were relating to Johnsons idea that because his boys beat a woeful Aussie team 6 months ago they have the fitness, skill and ability to live with the AB's. They don't.


Oh I dunno AB, the SH mindset (incl Aus & SA) has been the focus of many posts/threads on here in recent months, perception being, its better, hence our habit of losing and you flatter us with that remark but hey, if the Saffer and Aus mindset isnt there, its their fault! But I do think we (England) have the fitness levels and abilty to beat the AB's as do Wales, Ireland and France but as I said here, I'm not sure they will:

Sleeper wrote:
I'm not saying England will beat the AB's, I dont think they will but any progress will be measured in the manner of any defeat.


pointless countering my view by agreeing with me!

And England beat that "woeful Aussie team" 3 months ago and not 6!

ABdomin8 wrote:
If Johnson has no hands on coaching role but is responsible for the teams performance then he either needs to strap on his boots and get on the training pitch or ditch his skills and fitness coaches and employ some new ones.


I think he probably coaches in the same manner as SCW did .............. and probably like GH does! And yeah, not all of his coaching staff is our cup of tea.

ABdomin8 wrote:
Like I said earlier, if they go out with their typical negative game plan at the break down and get away with it they might keep the game within 10 points. If they get blown off the park for being negative or they actually try and win the game they will be beaten by 25+.


I wouldnt argue (nor have I at any time in the thread) that against the AB's, all I'm simply saying is that they are capable of beating the Saffers and Aus, that based on some poor shows in the 3N's and England beating the Aussies! Not too sure why you see it otherwise!

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Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:24 pm
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
Quote:
You imply the Aussies are slaves to a game plan, be barmy IMO to stick hard and fast to something which might not work ..........


Didn't imply that at all, quite the opposite, the Aussies have changed their game plan/style since the start of the year and as a result they beat SA in Saffa and game within 30 seconds of beating the AB's.

Quote:
I have to disagree, what was apparent during the 3N's was that the NH has little to fear from the Ausies and SA, they were poor.


Haha, your the only person from the NH that I have heard or seen with that opinion. The truth is the NH teams would dream of been able to play with the speed, skill, and intensity that all 3N teams played with in the last 3 or 4 games.

Quote:
ABdomin8 wrote:
Eng might beat Aussie and SA in the autumn tests, and that's because Aus and SA don't have the same "every game is a must win" attitude that the ABs do, but thats not what my comments were about. My comments were relating to Johnsons idea that because his boys beat a woeful Aussie team 6 months ago they have the fitness, skill and ability to live with the AB's. They don't.


Oh I dunno AB, the SH mindset (incl Aus & SA) has been the focus of many posts/threads on here in recent months, perception being, its better, hence our habit of losing and you flatter us with that remark but hey, if the Saffer and Aus mindset isnt there, its their fault! But I do think we (England) have the fitness levels and abilty to beat the AB's as do Wales, Ireland and France but as I said here, I'm not sure they will:


Yeah I totally agree, I couldn't give a toss if you guys beat Aussie and the Boks, in fact I'll laugh my arse off at Dingo if Aus do lose. If all the NH teams have the skill, speed, fitness etc etc to beat us....why don't you? Its not simply about the mindset either, and while you stick with that idea you will have 2 areas which you need to overcome to beat us.

Quote:
Sleeper wrote:
I'm not saying England will beat the AB's, I dont think they will but any progress will be measured in the manner of any defeat.


pointless countering my view by agreeing with me!


hmm, I didn't write that, you did?

Quote:
And England beat that "woeful Aussie team" 3 months ago and not 6!


It will be 6 by the time you guys play us!

Quote:
I think he probably coaches in the same manner as SCW did .............. and probably like GH does! And yeah, not all of his coaching staff is our cup of tea.


No, wrong again sleeper, you always see GH and co on the field, boots on and actually coaching. During the S14 they are always complaining how they can't wait for the test season so they can get back in to hands on coaching.

Quote:
I wouldnt argue (nor have I at any time in the thread) that against the AB's, all I'm simply saying is that they are capable of beating the Saffers and Aus, that based on some poor shows in the 3N's and England beating the Aussies! Not too sure why you see it otherwise!


I thought this thread was about Johnson not fearing the AB's and thinking they can beat us because they beat the Aussies, not whether you are capable of beating Aussie and SA??


Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:26 pm
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
ABdomin8 wrote:
I thought this thread was about Johnson not fearing the AB's and thinking they can beat us because they beat the Aussies, not whether you are capable of beating Aussie and SA??


Ah .................. you "thought", there goes a reason for so many barmy notions and why folk have a particular mindset, or misunderstand, they "thought", alas they did so badly!

Nowhere in the thread or in that piece written by Clearly does it say Johnson doesnt fear the AB's or that he thinks England can beat the AB's! He simply says:

"No, I'm not fazed," said Johnson. "Every time I've ever stood here to talk about the All Blacks, there's never been a bad side. They've not lost a Test match in Britain and Ireland for eight years. So, we know what's there".

Some positives and some respect for the AB's ................. you dont teach by any chance do you AB?

I said that no NH side should fear Aus or SA, that based on Englands win in the Aussie backyard and the Saffer and Aus performance in the 3N's and yeah, a view probably shared by a few more NH posters!

ABdomin8 wrote:
Yeah I totally agree, I couldn't give a toss if you guys beat Aussie and the Boks, in fact I'll laugh my arse off at Dingo if Aus do lose. If all the NH teams have the skill, speed, fitness etc etc to beat us....why don't you? Its not simply about the mindset either, and while you stick with that idea you will have 2 areas which you need to overcome to beat us.


Beat who, the AB's or Aus and the Saffers? If the former, I havent said we will, if the latter .......... we just did!

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Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:22 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
The heading - "England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ", doesn't say Aus or Boks does it Sleeper?

Johnson said because his team won against Aussie in Aus they know what is expected and needed to beat the AB's, and that they don't feel they are behind the pace of the SH game, that their fitness has improved, and he's not fazed by playing the AB's.

If your going to try and argue that by saying all that he is not saying he doesn't fear the AB's or that he thinks Eng can beat us then its pointless even having a discussion.

Quote:
Yeah I totally agree, I couldn't give a toss if you guys beat Aussie and the Boks, in fact I'll laugh my arse off at Dingo if Aus do lose. If all the NH teams have the skill, speed, fitness etc etc to beat us....why don't you? Its not simply about the mindset either, and while you stick with that idea you will have 2 areas which you need to overcome to beat us.

Quote:
Beat who, the AB's or Aus and the Saffers? If the former, I havent said we will, if the latter .......... we just did!


There you go again muddying the waters, you know exactly what teams I'm talking about.

You said:
Quote:
But I do think we (England) have the fitness levels and abilty to beat the AB's as do Wales, Ireland and France but as I said here, I'm not sure they will:


And I asked you if your fit enough, have the ability i.e skill and talent, and as we always hear that you have the belief, then why don't you beat us? You say all this stuff about nothing to fear, and in the short time I have been on this thread I have seen you post things like NH players and comps are the SH equal, and your players are just as skillful, and you're just as good blah blah blah.

If that's the case then why don't Eng beat the AB's more than on average once every 15 odd years, Wales in 50 yrs, Scotland and Ireland never?


Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:07 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
ont he england warm up, here is what Martin Johnson said about the warm ups.

Sometimes, though, we've found that sessions which we imagined were light, were actually tougher than we thought. We had a couple of the guys wearing GPS units during the team warm-up before the first Test against Australia in the summer and discovered that they travelled over a kilometre and a half. We thought that excessive so we cut it back for the second Test. We won that matc

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:05 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
ABdomin8 wrote:
The heading - "England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ", doesn't say Aus or Boks does it Sleeper?


Nope, nor does it say England will beat the AB's, it was a headline and an intro and it was written by Mick Cleary hence my comments in the first post ..................... I'm not sure I should be responsible for your inability to comprehend that which MJ said and that which MC wrote! :dontknow:

ABdomin8 wrote:
Johnson said because his team won against Aussie in Aus they know what is expected and needed to beat the AB's, and that they don't feel they are behind the pace of the SH game, that their fitness has improved, and he's not fazed by playing the AB's.

If your going to try and argue that by saying all that he is not saying he doesn't fear the AB's or that he thinks Eng can beat us then its pointless even having a discussion.


Not sure that makes too much sense really, not sure either that you know what it means, what he said was:

"When the guys get back together they know that they will have to play at Test-match intensity, with the right levels of execution, right from the start. But they've been to Australia and they've won. You don't know what you know 'til you know it. It's about experiencing things. This group has done that. They've seen it, they've felt it, they've played it.

"Getting close is one thing, getting over the line, whether it's a one-point, three-point or 10-point margin, is a big step. We know that we can still improve but we didn't feel that we were behind the pace of the game down there."


A bit of a difference with MJ's take on what he says and what you think he says!

ABdomin8 wrote:
And I asked you if your fit enough, have the ability i.e skill and talent, and as we always hear that you have the belief, then why don't you beat us? You say all this stuff about nothing to fear, and in the short time I have been on this thread I have seen you post things like NH players and comps are the SH equal, and your players are just as skillful, and you're just as good blah blah blah.


Yep, I do believe we are fit enough and yeah, I do believe we have the skill/ability to beat the AB's but as I implied from post 1 and 5 I'm not sure we will beat the AB's as I believe the AB mind set/mental toughness and desire to win is greater than ours. What I have said in associated threads is that the AB's are the better all round team and that we "should" be capable of beating them in 1 out of 3 tests, that being our target and to win a WC that is all you need.

ABdomin8 wrote:
If that's the case then why don't Eng beat the AB's more than on average once every 15 odd years, Wales in 50 yrs, Scotland and Ireland never?


The issue and the intent in the thread was never about us beating the AB's this coming Autumn, it was that we have little to fear from Aus or the Saffers and that France, England, Ireland, Wales and to a lesser extent Scotland should be able to compete against Aus and SA on equal terms ....................... you leap in with both feet having not understood the article/feature nor my posts and read it as the England are going to muller the AB's!

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:14 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
Whether England or Wales, Ireland etc. lets hope the SH teams keep dismissing all chances against SH opposition? Facts are, England have improved measurably, and you can NOT, by any standard, discard the win over Oz IN Oz!! In fact, the whole NH teams have improved with France winning away against NZ, England against Oz and Wales almost snatching one against the Saffers?
Keep on throwing stones at us lads, all NH results are getting ever closer to the SH teams!!

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:26 am
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
Otto wrote:
Whether England or Wales, Ireland etc. lets hope the SH teams keep dismissing all chances against SH opposition? Facts are, England have improved measurably, and you can NOT, by any standard, discard the win over Oz IN Oz!! In fact, the whole NH teams have improved with France winning away against NZ, England against Oz and Wales almost snatching one against the Saffers?
Keep on throwing stones at us lads, all NH results are getting ever closer to the SH teams!!


You know something, had anyone up here spouted as some SH folk have it would have been labelled as extreme NH arrogance. Another thing is the importance of these Autumn internationals in determining whether the AB's are indeed the "best" there has ever been, a thread or two on here and a few comments asking exactly that.

No argument from me, nor has there been that the AB's are the best about at the moment but they can and will be beaten at some stage, hopefully after the pool stage of the WC if its only the once. But and its a big but (the senstive and precious SH folk dont go off on one here) Australia I think have some brilliant backs who given the opportunity will run a team ragged, whether they will depends on the success of the oppositions game plan and flexibility as the Aussie forwards (tight 5) are ordinary and more often is the case that a world class 6, 7 and 8 can sometimes do little about.

The Saffers are in some state of transition and I expect them to come good for the WC but at the moment they are way off what they were 18 months ago.

Both Australia and SA are beatable by Ireland, France, England, Wales and Scotland and if they are, a different complexity is placed on the tag of the AB's as "the best ever"! If NZ, Aus and SA have a clean sweep of the NH then yes, I would say the AB's are the "best ever" having beaten them both (Aus & SA) convincingly in the 3N's, and yeah, the last win over the Aussies was convincing even if stuff didnt go all the AB's way and it was a late finish!

The NH "step up" should be measured by a win (one will do) against the AB's in the AI's or the manner of defeat!

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:14 pm
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Post Re: England Manager Martin Johnson Confident Of Matching NZ
I think ABdomin8 is saying that the new "style" of play is going to be to much for the NH teams, don't know meself. NZ has owned the NH teams(except those bloody frogs) for a while now, and we always go well in the AI's. I think quite a few kiwis will be picking a stroll through the NH, could be arrogance, but it has been that way for a few years now, and we seem to have evolved a bit quicker then everyone else(not going to last long though, hopefully until after that stink tourny next year), which are both strong points to expect 5 more wins this year.

I think winning 5 more games this season still won't make this team much different from the many good AB teams. Win the WC and they will become immortal.

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:42 pm
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