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Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018) 
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...


Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
TJP wrote:
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...


I thought the Ospreys 9 and 10 were quite good.

Not as good as the Llanelli halfbacks now playing in Cardiff, of course, but quite good.


Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:33 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Best news ... Blues would rather use the money North would cost in a way that actually makes sense. About 10 years too late, but better late than never.

"Blues chief executive Richard Holland says North is a "quality player" but they want to strengthen their pack. The region has decided to prioritise front-five signings before the 2018-19 season, given that props Taufa'ao Filise and Gethin Jenkins are 40 and 37 respectively, while hooker Matthew Rees is 37."


Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:10 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Stockholm Blue wrote:
Best news ... Blues would rather use the money North would cost in a way that actually makes sense. About 10 years too late, but better late than never.

"Blues chief executive Richard Holland says North is a "quality player" but they want to strengthen their pack. The region has decided to prioritise front-five signings before the 2018-19 season, given that props Taufa'ao Filise and Gethin Jenkins are 40 and 37 respectively, while hooker Matthew Rees is 37."

Hmm, Dad's army comes to mind. :D


Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:34 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Ospreys made hard work if that... then so did the blues

Both sides had their moments but probably a fair result in the end. Never been the biggest fan but bigger was excellent. Ospreys back row is a bit slow and cracknell and mcusker lack real quality


Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:49 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
TJP wrote:
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...



The problem is that the quality of the coaching is poor for far to many of the youngsters involved in the game, the end result is the end product is not good enough. Players cant play whats in front of them, in the way NZ players do, to overcome this, senior coaches try to put in a heavily structured game plan, as the players dont understand the game or have the instinctual skill set one would hope. Some do, but a chain is only as good as its week links.

The "rugby pathway" is full of puddles, broken glass and broken dreams with to many idiots pointing the way.

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"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:15 am
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Front 5 has been a recruitment priority (or at least should have been) for about five years.

The only front 5 signings in that period that have had any impact have been Rhys Gill and George Earle, and even those two have hardly set the world alight. Seb Davies has been great and they have some decent young props, but they haven't been actual signings.


Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:02 am
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Figaro wrote:
Front 5 has been a recruitment priority (or at least should have been) for about five years.

The only front 5 signings in that period that have had any impact have been Rhys Gill and George Earle, and even those two have hardly set the world alight. Seb Davies has been great and they have some decent young props, but they haven't been actual signings.


Emphasis on the "should have been" ...

When you think of Peikrishvili, Bourrust, Ma'afu, Mitchell, maybe there has been a bit of bad luck in there but definitely some bad judgement as well.


Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:45 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Also unlucky that Bradley Davies chose the Ospreys (who didn't really need another lock) over them - though I suppose it's a case of making your own luck in that if they'd been more competitive they'd have been more attractive.


Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Blindside wrote:
TJP wrote:
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...



The problem is that the quality of the coaching is poor for far to many of the youngsters involved in the game, the end result is the end product is not good enough. Players cant play whats in front of them, in the way NZ players do, to overcome this, senior coaches try to put in a heavily structured game plan, as the players dont understand the game or have the instinctual skill set one would hope. Some do, but a chain is only as good as its week links.

The "rugby pathway" is full of puddles, broken glass and broken dreams with to many idiots pointing the way.


I think you overestimate the degree to which the problems start at a young age. Not saying that I entirely disagree with you - I am astonished at how poor and rundown the facilities are at many amateur and even semi-pro clubs, where obviously the kids would start. However, it seems that the majority of the problems are caused by the underfunding and poor coaching at the pro teams. After all, the Wales age grade teams have had some great results in recent years - the U20s had a 6N Grand Slam in 2016, last year the U18s beat their English and South African counterparts in the Summer, while many of the players involved in regional rugby now, such as Tom Habberfield and Sam Davies, were part of the excellent 2012 and 2013 JWC campaigns where Wales came 3rd and 2nd respectively, including victories over New Zealand U20s in the former and South Africa U20s in the latter.


Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:16 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
najbritcol wrote:
Blindside wrote:
TJP wrote:
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...



The problem is that the quality of the coaching is poor for far to many of the youngsters involved in the game, the end result is the end product is not good enough. Players cant play whats in front of them, in the way NZ players do, to overcome this, senior coaches try to put in a heavily structured game plan, as the players dont understand the game or have the instinctual skill set one would hope. Some do, but a chain is only as good as its week links.

The "rugby pathway" is full of puddles, broken glass and broken dreams with to many idiots pointing the way.


I think you overestimate the degree to which the problems start at a young age. Not saying that I entirely disagree with you - I am astonished at how poor and rundown the facilities are at many amateur and even semi-pro clubs, where obviously the kids would start. However, it seems that the majority of the problems are caused by the underfunding and poor coaching at the pro teams. After all, the Wales age grade teams have had some great results in recent years - the U20s had a 6N Grand Slam in 2016, last year the U18s beat their English and South African counterparts in the Summer, while many of the players involved in regional rugby now, such as Tom Habberfield and Sam Davies, were part of the excellent 2012 and 2013 JWC campaigns where Wales came 3rd and 2nd respectively, including victories over New Zealand U20s in the former and South Africa U20s in the latter.



Facilities can be a problem, but the biggest facility is a suitable instruction which is progressive and appropriate.

Wales age grade sides reflect the performances of the senior side, there have been good results and terrible results. As i have pointed out to you before the average finishing position in the under 20 World Cup in the decade or so since its conception is 6th. That is the statistic you should focus on for obvious reasons. When Wales beat NZ in rain in the under 20 WC they lost the semi by 30 pts to the same NZ side.

If you could point to our junior rugby being having better results than our senior rugby you would have a point, we average between 3rd and 4th in the Six Nations. Highlighting Haberfield and even Sam Daivies proves what, we will and have always produced players. Two decent players but no one is saying Haberfield is international class and there are massive doubts over Davies!

You may well consider it your duty to support Welsh rugby and only point to the sweet corn instead of the turd, but as i have told you before, you should look at the facts and come to a conclusion, not come to a conclusion and then look for isolated facts to support that conclusion.

_________________
"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:06 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Blindside wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Blindside wrote:
TJP wrote:
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...



The problem is that the quality of the coaching is poor for far to many of the youngsters involved in the game, the end result is the end product is not good enough. Players cant play whats in front of them, in the way NZ players do, to overcome this, senior coaches try to put in a heavily structured game plan, as the players dont understand the game or have the instinctual skill set one would hope. Some do, but a chain is only as good as its week links.

The "rugby pathway" is full of puddles, broken glass and broken dreams with to many idiots pointing the way.


I think you overestimate the degree to which the problems start at a young age. Not saying that I entirely disagree with you - I am astonished at how poor and rundown the facilities are at many amateur and even semi-pro clubs, where obviously the kids would start. However, it seems that the majority of the problems are caused by the underfunding and poor coaching at the pro teams. After all, the Wales age grade teams have had some great results in recent years - the U20s had a 6N Grand Slam in 2016, last year the U18s beat their English and South African counterparts in the Summer, while many of the players involved in regional rugby now, such as Tom Habberfield and Sam Davies, were part of the excellent 2012 and 2013 JWC campaigns where Wales came 3rd and 2nd respectively, including victories over New Zealand U20s in the former and South Africa U20s in the latter.



Facilities can be a problem, but the biggest facility is a suitable instruction which is progressive and appropriate.

Wales age grade sides reflect the performances of the senior side, there have been good results and terrible results. As i have pointed out to you before the average finishing position in the under 20 World Cup in the decade or so since its conception is 6th. That is the statistic you should focus on for obvious reasons. When Wales beat NZ in rain in the under 20 WC they lost the semi by 30 pts to the same NZ side.

If you could point to our junior rugby being having better results than our senior rugby you would have a point, we average between 3rd and 4th in the Six Nations. Highlighting Haberfield and even Sam Daivies proves what, we will and have always produced players. Two decent players but no one is saying Haberfield is international class and there are massive doubts over Davies!

You may well consider it your duty to support Welsh rugby and only point to the sweet corn instead of the turd, but as i have told you before, you should look at the facts and come to a conclusion, not come to a conclusion and then look for isolated facts to support that conclusion.


But apart from England, which NH country has had a better winning record at either age-grade or senior level over the last decade than has Wales? The point is you always seem to imply that Wales are shit and everyone else is great, which is much of the time really far from being the case. The truth is that, compared to Scotland, France and even to a certain extent Ireland, Wales have been remarkably successful internationally in recent years - at least when it comes to actual competitions rather than just AIs and Summer tours, that is.


Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:16 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
najbritcol wrote:
Blindside wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Blindside wrote:
TJP wrote:
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...



The problem is that the quality of the coaching is poor for far to many of the youngsters involved in the game, the end result is the end product is not good enough. Players cant play whats in front of them, in the way NZ players do, to overcome this, senior coaches try to put in a heavily structured game plan, as the players dont understand the game or have the instinctual skill set one would hope. Some do, but a chain is only as good as its week links.

The "rugby pathway" is full of puddles, broken glass and broken dreams with to many idiots pointing the way.


I think you overestimate the degree to which the problems start at a young age. Not saying that I entirely disagree with you - I am astonished at how poor and rundown the facilities are at many amateur and even semi-pro clubs, where obviously the kids would start. However, it seems that the majority of the problems are caused by the underfunding and poor coaching at the pro teams. After all, the Wales age grade teams have had some great results in recent years - the U20s had a 6N Grand Slam in 2016, last year the U18s beat their English and South African counterparts in the Summer, while many of the players involved in regional rugby now, such as Tom Habberfield and Sam Davies, were part of the excellent 2012 and 2013 JWC campaigns where Wales came 3rd and 2nd respectively, including victories over New Zealand U20s in the former and South Africa U20s in the latter.



Facilities can be a problem, but the biggest facility is a suitable instruction which is progressive and appropriate.

Wales age grade sides reflect the performances of the senior side, there have been good results and terrible results. As i have pointed out to you before the average finishing position in the under 20 World Cup in the decade or so since its conception is 6th. That is the statistic you should focus on for obvious reasons. When Wales beat NZ in rain in the under 20 WC they lost the semi by 30 pts to the same NZ side.

If you could point to our junior rugby being having better results than our senior rugby you would have a point, we average between 3rd and 4th in the Six Nations. Highlighting Haberfield and even Sam Daivies proves what, we will and have always produced players. Two decent players but no one is saying Haberfield is international class and there are massive doubts over Davies!

You may well consider it your duty to support Welsh rugby and only point to the sweet corn instead of the turd, but as i have told you before, you should look at the facts and come to a conclusion, not come to a conclusion and then look for isolated facts to support that conclusion.


But apart from England, which NH country has had a better winning record at either age-grade or senior level over the last decade than has Wales? The point is you always seem to imply that Wales are shit and everyone else is great, which is much of the time really far from being the case. The truth is that, compared to Scotland, France and even to a certain extent Ireland, Wales have been remarkably successful internationally in recent years - at least when it comes to actual competitions rather than just AIs and Summer tours, that is.



Since it began in 2008 England have done much better France have done better and Ireland have done the same, Scotland and Italy have done worst. FACT. The year Wales won the GS they finished 7th (i think) in the WC. there is nothing "remarkable" about this. Indeed the fortunes of the senior team are slightly better. As ive already said they average a 6th place finish in the under 20 WC. Those are the facts.

Therefore there appears a correlation between how young Welsh players perform and how the senior side perform. When your saying "apart from" in your answers, you are deciding what to include or exclude to suit your point.

Im not saying Wales are shit, im saying Wales is unremarkable, a small country who play a lot of rugby but do not put in place systems that may allow them to punch above their weight in any respect, or at any stage. If we accepted being average, great no problem, but we dont, we talk about players as if they are outstanding examples of international quality sportsmen when most clearly are not, we talk as if we are special and we are not. We could try to be, but we dont, becuase it would mean changes and they kind of changes would effect those comfortable with their snout in the trough.

_________________
"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:11 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
Blindside wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Blindside wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Blindside wrote:
TJP wrote:
trampie wrote:
Ospreys and Welsh teams currently have no idea of tactics and it's been like that for a few years now, when to kick at goal and when not to for example, very disappointing and its something you can't really teach, either a captain has a rugby brain or they don't.


I think the problem is over coaching from bad coaches.

The more I watch regional rugby, the more I think teams and players are generally getting worse...



The problem is that the quality of the coaching is poor for far to many of the youngsters involved in the game, the end result is the end product is not good enough. Players cant play whats in front of them, in the way NZ players do, to overcome this, senior coaches try to put in a heavily structured game plan, as the players dont understand the game or have the instinctual skill set one would hope. Some do, but a chain is only as good as its week links.

The "rugby pathway" is full of puddles, broken glass and broken dreams with to many idiots pointing the way.


I think you overestimate the degree to which the problems start at a young age. Not saying that I entirely disagree with you - I am astonished at how poor and rundown the facilities are at many amateur and even semi-pro clubs, where obviously the kids would start. However, it seems that the majority of the problems are caused by the underfunding and poor coaching at the pro teams. After all, the Wales age grade teams have had some great results in recent years - the U20s had a 6N Grand Slam in 2016, last year the U18s beat their English and South African counterparts in the Summer, while many of the players involved in regional rugby now, such as Tom Habberfield and Sam Davies, were part of the excellent 2012 and 2013 JWC campaigns where Wales came 3rd and 2nd respectively, including victories over New Zealand U20s in the former and South Africa U20s in the latter.



Facilities can be a problem, but the biggest facility is a suitable instruction which is progressive and appropriate.

Wales age grade sides reflect the performances of the senior side, there have been good results and terrible results. As i have pointed out to you before the average finishing position in the under 20 World Cup in the decade or so since its conception is 6th. That is the statistic you should focus on for obvious reasons. When Wales beat NZ in rain in the under 20 WC they lost the semi by 30 pts to the same NZ side.

If you could point to our junior rugby being having better results than our senior rugby you would have a point, we average between 3rd and 4th in the Six Nations. Highlighting Haberfield and even Sam Daivies proves what, we will and have always produced players. Two decent players but no one is saying Haberfield is international class and there are massive doubts over Davies!

You may well consider it your duty to support Welsh rugby and only point to the sweet corn instead of the turd, but as i have told you before, you should look at the facts and come to a conclusion, not come to a conclusion and then look for isolated facts to support that conclusion.


But apart from England, which NH country has had a better winning record at either age-grade or senior level over the last decade than has Wales? The point is you always seem to imply that Wales are shit and everyone else is great, which is much of the time really far from being the case. The truth is that, compared to Scotland, France and even to a certain extent Ireland, Wales have been remarkably successful internationally in recent years - at least when it comes to actual competitions rather than just AIs and Summer tours, that is.



Since it began in 2008 England have done much better France have done better and Ireland have done the same, Scotland and Italy have done worst. FACT. The year Wales won the GS they finished 7th (i think) in the WC. there is nothing "remarkable" about this. Indeed the fortunes of the senior team are slightly better. As ive already said they average a 6th place finish in the under 20 WC. Those are the facts.

Therefore there appears a correlation between how young Welsh players perform and how the senior side perform. When your saying "apart from" in your answers, you are deciding what to include or exclude to suit your point.

Im not saying Wales are shit, im saying Wales is unremarkable, a small country who play a lot of rugby but do not put in place systems that may allow them to punch above their weight in any respect, or at any stage. If we accepted being average, great no problem, but we dont, we talk about players as if they are outstanding examples of international quality sportsmen when most clearly are not, we talk as if we are special and we are not. We could try to be, but we dont, becuase it would mean changes and they kind of changes would effect those comfortable with their snout in the trough.


OK I agree that some of our players are too easily overrated, but then many of them have been in demand from English and French clubs for a reason, no? I mainly meant the senior side have had the best record in the NH since 2008 (apart from England) - at least in the 6N if not overall. The age-grade sides have been variable, but we mustn't forget that the team in 2012 was the first-ever team to beat New Zealand at that level. The reason why I specifically mentioned Tom Habberfield and Sam Davies is because Habberfield captained the 2012 team that beat NZ, and Sam Davies was fly-half the year later and won World Junior Player of the Year, and both happened to be playing in the match which this thread discusses. It is the fact that those two players (and no doubt quite a few others too) displayed so much potential at age-grade level but have not been especially remarkable at senior level is what I am getting at. The big question being WHY that is the case?


Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:25 pm
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Post Re: Pro 14: Ospreys v Blues (Sat 06.01.2018)
najbritcol wrote:

I think you overestimate the degree to which the problems start at a young age. Not saying that I entirely disagree with you - I am astonished at how poor and rundown the facilities are at many amateur and even semi-pro clubs, where obviously the kids would start. However, it seems that the majority of the problems are caused by the underfunding and poor coaching at the pro teams.

Agree with you to a point but not agenda - how much of a difference facilities make?

At a junior level at least, all you really need is a pitch, balls and maybe a few cones even a portacabin without a shower is fine as a changing room for kids. The state of the facilites probably males an aesthetic difference but little difference to the on the field training.

I will stand corrected but I would think the main consideration as you have said is getting the right coaches with good ideas teaching. Then having a decent structure to allow decent players to progress and coaches to learn. I would say this should be our focal point.


Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:34 pm
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