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Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending 
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
It is a prime event for potential serious injury.

It is, imo, right to encourage players to take prime care and attention when doing so.

I believe that the current approach is the correct one.

It belongs e.g with no arms tackles especially with shoulder emphasis ...again under increased scrutiny.

Both competition for the ball and tackling are integral parts of the game but penalising rashness and consequence of action is, imo, valid.

My reading of the incident was that Evans did not have compeitive height in the confrontation, the opponent was significantly nearer possesion and Evans took the legs clean away with or without intent. A potentially serious injury was mercifully avoided.

I don't think that there was intention to foul or incur injury but I do think it was ill advised and deserved the immediate penalty and the consequence.

And ...it was directly in line with current referee guidelines and emphasis



To tackle with no arms is a decision you take, it may be to protect yourself or to injur but it is a decision you have control total control over. To challenge for the ball in the air is a high end skill, you do not see it outside of professional rugby. It is easy to mistime and misjudge, in effect it is an accident waiting to happen. That it was in line with guidelines i dont dispute at all. My point is that current guidelines are putting players at unacceptable risk. Both players are the victims ot the laws.


and the alternative?

I dislike the current shape of the game à la RL continual breakdown with lines drawn irrespective of numbers on the back but so be it ...

If we start to radically change more of the game it will become less recognisable than ever.

One could say that the physique, fitness, muscular nature of the game has outstripped the laws of the game?

I suspect so and the injury aspect is worrying and differentials between positions and function and the numbers on the back are disappearing.

Apologies for broadening the extent of the subject of this thread but ultimately it cannot be treated in isolation?



I think it can be treated in isolation with the possible exception of the lifting players to take a kick off, however, i think that collision is avoidable of you exercise a duty of care, where the other is not. Its not even a traditional part the game, did JPR jump for the ball. The game would be safer without it if there is a life-changing injury the in a televised game it will be changed.

You make a valid point, if there was no leaping to take the ball there would be fewer injuries. As you say, I don't recall JPR jumping for a ball. This begs the question, do some players leap for the ball hoping they will be taken out and get a penalty or have the opposing side play the rest of the game with 14 men.


Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:32 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
I dont think they do it to get a penalty but they know there will be likely contact!

Image


"The catcher jumps for the ball with knees hitting the pad. This replicates opposition bodies when catching the ball under pressure".

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:06 am
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
Might be better off to make it illegal to leave feet when attempting to catch the kicked ball?

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:21 am
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
Have a look at Ireland's players some time.

Jumping early is NOT contesting for the ball in the air.

Jumping late - Do -


Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:23 am
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
Langland Exile wrote:
Might be better off to make it illegal to leave feet when attempting to catch the kicked ball?


Would affect other aspects though? ... e.g the increasingly popular kick-pass into the corner often depends on ability to time, leap and take the ball to score tries.

Also there will be increased attraction to select big wingers and the smaller variety could become extinct?

As always, meddle with one aspect and affect others ....

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:49 am
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
I still think that given proper coaching and player responsibility sensible decisions can be made

If two players are positioned well enough ie underneath where the ball will drop then both can jump upwards towards the ball and compete for it

The problems comes when a player is not close enough to the ball and launches himself vertically and doesn’t really get off the ground. They then clatter into the other player

I’m scratching my head at this one as competing in the air is a big part of football... and they seem the manage fine... and using their head. A relatively new aspect of rugby which is poorly coached in my opinion


Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:14 am
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
Blindside wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
Blindside wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
Abertawe Leinster wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
The citing panel clearly felt it was an accident. If they didn’t then the sentence would surely have been far worse.


It was an awful challenge Icey and he deserves the ban.

Sean

Yes I agree and I think I’ve already said as much. Im not debating the validity of the card or length of the ban. I’m simply making the point that it doesn’t have to be intentional to warrant a ban.



Im sorry but that makes no sense, it was clearly an awful challenge, however the laws of the game are to blame and not the player. The player is taking responsibility for the fact that the law of averages make such incidents inevitable and unavoidable due to the nature of such incidents, eyes up watching the ball fast moving, coached to jump.

Which bit doesn't make sense? You could say the laws of the game are to blame and allow for every poor challenge other than deliberate foul play.


It doesnt make sense because he could have made a good challenge for the ball but the other player made a fantastic challenge for the ball and you would have the same result. It doesnt make sense because it is avoidable, by stopping players jumping for the ball. When people set out to challenge they are not aware if it will be a successful challenge a poor challenge or a mistimed challenge, so percentagely you can never prevent this kind of collision completely. Once he left the floor he had no means of changing his direction, he was committed and could not pull out. When you jump to a ball you are forced to focus on the ball and not your opposition.

The dangers involved are very high, jumping for the ball is not an integral part of the game and if it was outlawed would not have a particularly detrimental effect on the game. If you allow people to jump unintentional outcomes are inevitable, its obvious and i cant see why everyone cant see it.
Yes, I think everyone can see that - no debate there.

This is all about the powers that be trying to manage the risk in the game. At the moment, players are allowed to jump and compete for the ball. It's an exciting but dangerous element of the game. They can either ban jumping (just like jumping into a tackle is banned) or they can manage the risk by issuing red cards and severe bans for those deemed to have transgressed. At the moment they choose to allow jumping and issue penalties to transgressors which puts a lot of responsibility onto players. This has greatly reduced the problem but will never eliminate it - and so every now and again we get an incident like this where a player accidental transgresses and pays a heavy price.

We can have a good debate about whether jumping should be banned and there is a good case for banning it - but until they do, then accidental incidents like this will happen from time to time. The good news is that it has probably eliminated all deliberate attempts to take someone out in the air.

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:48 am
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
ICEverything wrote:
Blindside wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
Blindside wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
Abertawe Leinster wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
The citing panel clearly felt it was an accident. If they didn’t then the sentence would surely have been far worse.


It was an awful challenge Icey and he deserves the ban.

Sean

Yes I agree and I think I’ve already said as much. Im not debating the validity of the card or length of the ban. I’m simply making the point that it doesn’t have to be intentional to warrant a ban.



Im sorry but that makes no sense, it was clearly an awful challenge, however the laws of the game are to blame and not the player. The player is taking responsibility for the fact that the law of averages make such incidents inevitable and unavoidable due to the nature of such incidents, eyes up watching the ball fast moving, coached to jump.

Which bit doesn't make sense? You could say the laws of the game are to blame and allow for every poor challenge other than deliberate foul play.


It doesnt make sense because he could have made a good challenge for the ball but the other player made a fantastic challenge for the ball and you would have the same result. It doesnt make sense because it is avoidable, by stopping players jumping for the ball. When people set out to challenge they are not aware if it will be a successful challenge a poor challenge or a mistimed challenge, so percentagely you can never prevent this kind of collision completely. Once he left the floor he had no means of changing his direction, he was committed and could not pull out. When you jump to a ball you are forced to focus on the ball and not your opposition.

The dangers involved are very high, jumping for the ball is not an integral part of the game and if it was outlawed would not have a particularly detrimental effect on the game. If you allow people to jump unintentional outcomes are inevitable, its obvious and i cant see why everyone cant see it.
Yes, I think everyone can see that - no debate there.

This is all about the powers that be trying to manage the risk in the game. At the moment, players are allowed to jump and compete for the ball. It's an exciting but dangerous element of the game. They can either ban jumping (just like jumping into a tackle is banned) or they can manage the risk by issuing red cards and severe bans for those deemed to have transgressed. At the moment they choose to allow jumping and issue penalties to transgressors which puts a lot of responsibility onto players. This has greatly reduced the problem but will never eliminate it - and so every now and again we get an incident like this where a player accidental transgresses and pays a heavy price.

We can have a good debate about whether jumping should be banned and there is a good case for banning it - but until they do, then accidental incidents like this will happen from time to time. The good news is that it has probably eliminated all deliberate attempts to take someone out in the air.



Yes my point is just that with every good intention both players may be convinced they can make the catch and a similar incident may result. No amount of sanction can control that. The nature of the collision is so potentially dangerous that it is an unacceptable risk.

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:12 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
I think that the tribunal should have looked at Steff Evans past record which clearly indicates he is a law abiding player. The tackle was bad, but it was accidental. When two players are jumping for a ball with neither of them having a foot on the ground, it is impossible to have any control over the outcome, and the tribunal should have not passed any further punishment.

The only solution here is to change the laws of the game, and make it illegal to jump at any time other than in the line out.


Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:26 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
ICEverything wrote:
The citing panel clearly felt it was an accident. If they didn’t then the sentence would surely have been far worse.


They were going to ban him for 8 weeks, but the defence was so nicely worded and the player so guiltless in the past that the panel decided to cut it to 4 weeks.

:bs:


Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:31 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending



Quote:
Steff Evans is clear to play in the Pro12 final against Munster after his red card for a tip tackle on Garry Ringrose was rescinded.

A disciplinary committee of Roddy Dunlop QC (Chair), Roddy MacLeod and Iain Leslie cleared Evans, by majority decision, after two of them accepted the tackle on Garry Ringrose in the 38th minute “only became dangerous as a result of the intervention” of Scarlets prop Samson Lee.

:thumbup:

https://cdn.extra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/24133021/evans-2-696x406.jpg


Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:48 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
Bouch wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
The citing panel clearly felt it was an accident. If they didn’t then the sentence would surely have been far worse.


They were going to ban him for 8 weeks, but the defence was so nicely worded and the player so guiltless in the past that the panel decided to cut it to 4 weeks.

:bs:

Do you think the citing panel thought it was deliberate then. :scratch:

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:00 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
I think my point is with better coaching and technique players will be better able to assess when “it’s on” or not

Rugby seems to have got itself into a unhelpful culture of competing for everything instead of thinking. The Keelan Giles injury is another example


Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:03 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
I think my point is with better coaching and technique players will be better able to assess when “it’s on” or not

Rugby seems to have got itself into a unhelpful culture of competing for everything instead of thinking. The Keelan Giles injury is another example



I dont think that is the point at all. At what percentage chance shoulda player decide its on to compete or not..... if its 49% should he pull out of the challenge, 30 %? :scratch: you are asking players to do a risk assessment on a collision that they can not properly assess as the level on concentration need to jump to a ball in a congested area is massive. Its nonsense, you do nothing intentionally illegal, however you are judged on the outcome of your decision rather than the decision itself.

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:41 pm
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Post Re: Steff Evans: Scarlets wing given four-week ban after sending
Blindside wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
I think my point is with better coaching and technique players will be better able to assess when “it’s on” or not

Rugby seems to have got itself into a unhelpful culture of competing for everything instead of thinking. The Keelan Giles injury is another example



I dont think that is the point at all. At what percentage chance shoulda player decide its on to compete or not..... if its 49% should he pull out of the challenge, 30 %? :scratch: you are asking players to do a risk assessment on a collision that they can not properly assess as the level on concentration need to jump to a ball in a congested area is massive. Its nonsense, you do nothing intentionally illegal, however you are judged on the outcome of your decision rather than the decision itself.


its not nonsense at all, every day we make split second decisions based on risk

driving for a start, at what percentage should you over take a lorry? if you get it wrong and you smash the family on the other side, yep you didnt mean to do it, but your decision was crap...

So I reject your idea that I am suggesting a risk assessment is necessary, and is slightly absurd; however I am an advocate of common sense and player responsibility


Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:24 pm
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