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Wales performance v Scarlets 
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
eborr wrote:
The proposition is a false one, and if anything takes something away from the Scarlets achievement. We should be honouring for being pro12 champions and winning by playing the kind of rugby that was part of my childhood dreams. Saying they are a better team than Wales is the type of self gratification best done in private.
There is a legitimate reason for asking questions of the national management group in the light of the Scarlets achievement. In that context I want to pay tribute to Samsung and Rob Evans who with only lightweight 2nd rows behind them nullified the effectiveness of two of the hest scrummaging teams in the NH, and who does McBride call into his squad but a couple of blokes who go backwards more often than not



Not sure there's anyone left which is a sad reflection of Welsh regions ( not one Welsh prop on the Lions either)...

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Mon May 29, 2017 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
eborr wrote:
The proposition is a false one, and if anything takes something away from the Scarlets achievement. We should be honouring for being pro12 champions and winning by playing the kind of rugby that was part of my childhood dreams. Saying they are a better team than Wales is the type of self gratification best done in private.
There is a legitimate reason for asking questions of the national management group in the light of the Scarlets achievement. In that context I want to pay tribute to Samsung and Rob Evans who with only lightweight 2nd rows behind them nullified the effectiveness of two of the hest scrummaging teams in the NH, and who does McBride call into his squad but a couple of blokes who go backwards more often than not

Actually, nobody is saying that the Scarlets are better than team Wales. The proposition in the opening post is that the Scarlets coaching team may be better than the Wales coaching team. As you think there is a 'legitimate reason for asking questions of the national management', then I guess you agreed with the proposition without realising it. :D

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Mon May 29, 2017 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Wouldn't be the first time


Mon May 29, 2017 6:36 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
I think I saw a video, {BBC?}, where Pivouac talks about letting the players decide once they're on the pitch.

It seems to me to make sense, Scarlets are playing heads up rugby, Patchell as much as any of them, and they seem to look, if they see space they go for it. What makes their play enjoyable for me, as a spectator, and to judge from players' faces and body language, is that the team have bought into this idea, whereas Wales seem over coached and micro managed into sterile pre-programmed moves. The try that beat Australia in the RWC was players, out of position, seeing a gap and having a go. The fact that they had so many injuries and so many playing out of position seemed to me to have sabotaged, if you can call it that, their pre-programming and their game plan.

I have to say for my way of thinking, this has produced at Llanelli a more enjoyable team to watch, and they seem to be winning games they'd have lost a few seasons ago.

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Mon May 29, 2017 7:12 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
Great point on lee and Evans. Samson such an unsung player in my book...


Samsung the unsung?


Mon May 29, 2017 7:35 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
buglet wrote:

In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


i do like this post.

the welsh back line, and in particular the 3/4s, are are particularly poor for wales, and yet 3 of the 5 in the scarlets also start for wales. there was a post somewhere saying how players were criticised for not performing for their regions like they do for wales, but now can be criticised for not performing for wales like they do for their regions.

as for coaching wales, gatland came in with previous international experience, having coached all over the world and won domestic tournaments in new zealand, and the league and european cup with wasps. gatland may be past his best before date, and pivac and jones have just won the pro12, but it is still significantly below the standard that has been set on a cv when appointing a coach.


Mon May 29, 2017 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
For me the issue is the Welsh selectors have lost their objectivity - possibly due to being there too long

When a new player comes through he has to take the place of a player the current set up have many years of memory. Your not just going up against current form but past form and in some cases glories

Watching the side at the moment is painful as it's very muddled, muddled thinking, selection etc

I am not sure the scarlets set up would sort out all problems in Welsh
Rugby but it could wipe the slate clean...


Mon May 29, 2017 9:47 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
For me the issue is the Welsh selectors have lost their objectivity - possibly due to being there too long

When a new player comes through he has to take the place of a player the current set up have many years of memory. Your not just going up against current form but past form and in some cases glories

Watching the side at the moment is painful as it's very muddled, muddled thinking, selection etc

I am not sure the scarlets set up would sort out all problems in Welsh
Rugby but it could wipe the slate clean...

The days of Biggar and crash bang, Big Bob amd Big North and Big Cuthbert are over. This was quite clear in the 6N.
All countries seemed to have bigger, Bobs, Cuthberts and Norths than us.
The likes of little Stef Evans are making a mockery of size.
Time to resort back to Welsh flare while every one else eventually finds out that the big bash doesn't work.
We need a strong fast and mobile forewards and speedy backs and a half back combination that have the capability of linking with both.
This sums up the success of Llanelli and the continuous success of the AB's.


Mon May 29, 2017 10:07 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
BigRed wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
For me the issue is the Welsh selectors have lost their objectivity - possibly due to being there too long

When a new player comes through he has to take the place of a player the current set up have many years of memory. Your not just going up against current form but past form and in some cases glories

Watching the side at the moment is painful as it's very muddled, muddled thinking, selection etc

I am not sure the scarlets set up would sort out all problems in Welsh
Rugby but it could wipe the slate clean...

The days of Biggar and crash bang, Big Bob amd Big North and Big Cuthbert are over. This was quite clear in the 6N.
All countries seemed to have bigger, Bobs, Cuthberts and Norths than us.
The likes of little Stef Evans are making a mockery of size.
Time to resort back to Welsh flare while every one else eventually finds out that the big bash doesn't work.
We need a strong fast and mobile forewards and speedy backs and a half back combination that have the capability of linking with both.
This sums up the success of Llanelli and the continuous success of the AB's.


I admire the fact you have managed to get Llanelli and the All Blacks into the same sentence!


Mon May 29, 2017 10:21 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
BigRed wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
For me the issue is the Welsh selectors have lost their objectivity - possibly due to being there too long

When a new player comes through he has to take the place of a player the current set up have many years of memory. Your not just going up against current form but past form and in some cases glories

Watching the side at the moment is painful as it's very muddled, muddled thinking, selection etc

I am not sure the scarlets set up would sort out all problems in Welsh
Rugby but it could wipe the slate clean...

The days of Biggar and crash bang, Big Bob amd Big North and Big Cuthbert are over. This was quite clear in the 6N.
All countries seemed to have bigger, Bobs, Cuthberts and Norths than us.
The likes of little Stef Evans are making a mockery of size.
Time to resort back to Welsh flare while every one else eventually finds out that the big bash doesn't work.
We need a strong fast and mobile forewards and speedy backs and a half back combination that have the capability of linking with both.
This sums up the success of Llanelli and the continuous success of the AB's.


I think you're confusing fast mobile forwards with skillful players. The all blacks pack is still able to play a forward dominated game in the pissing rain. Beach rugby is not the answer, and that's not how the scarlets won at the weekend


Mon May 29, 2017 10:32 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
BigRed wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
For me the issue is the Welsh selectors have lost their objectivity - possibly due to being there too long

When a new player comes through he has to take the place of a player the current set up have many years of memory. Your not just going up against current form but past form and in some cases glories

Watching the side at the moment is painful as it's very muddled, muddled thinking, selection etc

I am not sure the scarlets set up would sort out all problems in Welsh
Rugby but it could wipe the slate clean...

The days of Biggar and crash bang, Big Bob amd Big North and Big Cuthbert are over. This was quite clear in the 6N.
All countries seemed to have bigger, Bobs, Cuthberts and Norths than us.
The likes of little Stef Evans are making a mockery of size.
Time to resort back to Welsh flare while every one else eventually finds out that the big bash doesn't work.
We need a strong fast and mobile forewards and speedy backs and a half back combination that have the capability of linking with both.
This sums up the success of Llanelli and the continuous success of the AB's.


I admire the fact you have managed to get Llanelli and the All Blacks into the same sentence!

:D
I'd make a good politician.


Mon May 29, 2017 10:32 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Fattaff wrote:
I think I saw a video, {BBC?}, where Pivouac talks about letting the players decide once they're on the pitch.

It seems to me to make sense, Scarlets are playing heads up rugby, Patchell as much as any of them, and they seem to look, if they see space they go for it. What makes their play enjoyable for me, as a spectator, and to judge from players' faces and body language, is that the team have bought into this idea, whereas Wales seem over coached and micro managed into sterile pre-programmed moves. The try that beat Australia in the RWC was players, out of position, seeing a gap and having a go. The fact that they had so many injuries and so many playing out of position seemed to me to have sabotaged, if you can call it that, their pre-programming and their game plan.

I have to say for my way of thinking, this has produced at Llanelli a more enjoyable team to watch, and they seem to be winning games they'd have lost a few seasons ago.


I think you meant England in the RWC, not Australia. The match against 13-men Australia was Wales at its worst. Anyway, the turnaround of the Scarlets so far has been extraordinary, but the key operative words are "so far". Let's see what happens next season, especially in the Champions Cup, although of course the fact they'll have top seeding in theory ought to make progression from the group stages easier.


Tue May 30, 2017 3:47 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
mr messy wrote:
buglet wrote:

In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


i do like this post.

the welsh back line, and in particular the 3/4s, are are particularly poor for wales, and yet 3 of the 5 in the scarlets also start for wales. there was a post somewhere saying how players were criticised for not performing for their regions like they do for wales, but now can be criticised for not performing for wales like they do for their regions.

as for coaching wales, gatland came in with previous international experience, having coached all over the world and won domestic tournaments in new zealand, and the league and european cup with wasps. gatland may be past his best before date, and pivac and jones have just won the pro12, but it is still significantly below the standard that has been set on a cv when appointing a coach.

I'm sure I read somwhere that Gatland had picked a conservative simple style of rugby because the players didn't have the skill set or wherewithall to execute a more complex game plan. I have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems that the Scarlets coaching team have worked hard on player skills. This has resulted for instance in props and locks in the backline who can pass the ball as well as taking contact when needed, and also being able to think for themselves as to which play to make. Even JD2 now gives try scoring passes.

My next statement may be so obvious that you would think that anyone capable of thought would understand and agree with it. I think the answer in future has to be to develop skills within the regions (and lower tiers and age grade) that can be utilised by the national coaches.

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Tue May 30, 2017 7:17 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
ICEverything wrote:

My next statement may be so obvious that you would think that anyone capable of thought would understand and agree with it. I think the answer in future has to be to develop skills within the regions (and lower tiers and age grade) that can be utilised by the national coaches.


You've been reading other people's posts again haven't you?

Felinfoel bois have said that since 1995.


Tue May 30, 2017 7:38 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Bouch wrote:
ICEverything wrote:

My next statement may be so obvious that you would think that anyone capable of thought would understand and agree with it. I think the answer in future has to be to develop skills within the regions (and lower tiers and age grade) that can be utilised by the national coaches.


You've been reading other people's posts again haven't you?

Felinfoel bois have said that since 1995.

I never pretended it was an original thought. Just an obvious one.

You can 'cut and paste' the next sentence and use it as a reply to me. 'That's a fantastic contribution to our collective wisdom ICE'.
:D

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Tue May 30, 2017 7:49 am
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