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Wales performance v Scarlets 
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Langland Exile wrote:
Yikes, miss the point by a mile..

Not really, no

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Sun May 28, 2017 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Big And Dull wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Yikes, miss the point by a mile..

Not really, no


Yes you do - Gatland is a New Zealander! not as simple as it seems - Pivac is a visionary end of!


Sun May 28, 2017 4:34 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Markdvdman wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Yikes, miss the point by a mile..

Not really, no


Yes you do - Gatland is a New Zealander! not as simple as it seems - Pivac is a visionary end of!

You said "Point is Pivac has gone to NZ to learn the template" How can he GO to NZ to learn the template when he was already there?
2002-2003 Auckland
2004-2007 Fiji
2007-2008 North Harbour
2011-2014 Auckland
2014- Scarlets

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Sun May 28, 2017 5:37 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Big And Dull wrote:
Markdvdman wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Yikes, miss the point by a mile..

Not really, no


Yes you do - Gatland is a New Zealander! not as simple as it seems - Pivac is a visionary end of!

You said "Point is Pivac has gone to NZ to learn the template" How can he GO to NZ to learn the template when he was already there?
2002-2003 Auckland
2004-2007 Fiji
2007-2008 North Harbour
2011-2014 Auckland
2014- Scarlets


I am done with you he has gone with his COACHING team to learn as a GROUP!!! Wayne cannot do it on his own! Stephen Jones is the key. Majestic. I do not care what you thing the Scarlets rugby played was WORLD CLASS!!!


Sun May 28, 2017 6:06 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Markdvdman wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
Markdvdman wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Yikes, miss the point by a mile..

Not really, no


Yes you do - Gatland is a New Zealander! not as simple as it seems - Pivac is a visionary end of!

You said "Point is Pivac has gone to NZ to learn the template" How can he GO to NZ to learn the template when he was already there?
2002-2003 Auckland
2004-2007 Fiji
2007-2008 North Harbour
2011-2014 Auckland
2014- Scarlets


I am done with you he has gone with his COACHING team to learn as a GROUP!!! Wayne cannot do it on his own! Stephen Jones is the key. Majestic. I do not care what you thing the Scarlets rugby played was WORLD CLASS!!!

If that is what you mean say it, we can't read your mind

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I'm also a dopey *bar steward* a childish fukkwit and a liar


Sun May 28, 2017 6:16 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Markdvdman wrote:
Troron wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Troron wrote:
Fattaff wrote:
Scarlets have got better and better throughout the season.

They have the Wales front row, one second choice lock for Wales,

One second choice 9, the two first choice centres and the FB/wing

Also, Shingler, Cubby, Boyde, Barclay, Patchell, and Steff Evans

none of whom seem worth a look on the int'l front, though a couple get to tour Japan with the A team.

Plus a couple of NZ lads who didn't make the top grade down there.

When they play for Scarlets, not only is it winning rugby, but also open fast rugby, enjoyable to watch, and to judge from the players' faces, enjoyable to play.
When they play for the national side, they are unadventurous and unimaginative to the point where other sides have long since worked them out and effectively neutralize them. Side to side stuff, precious little creative rugby.
Largely from the same players.
This can only be down to the coaches.
Is it now time to swap the national coaching set up?


Trying to directly compare club performances with international performances doesn't work. Ashton is a fantastic club winger but a shite international. Goode is a great club 15 but a crap international. Scarlets are also below the other teams around them in the table for bonus points. I'm pretty sure if you replaced the Welsh team with the Scarlets and put them up against international sides, they would perform worse than Wales do now.


I agree with what you say up to a point, but not entirely. In fact, the particular examples you give are interesting. Ashton has scored loads of tries for England as well as Northampton and Saracens, but the reason he has been cast aside is much more due to his ill-discipline than lack of skills or ability. (On the other hand, the just-as-vile Dylan Hartley has been revived by Eddie Jones...) Alex Goode has indeed been a mystery as to why he has hardly been selected for England (the other one is try machine Christian Wade). As brilliant a coach as Eddie Jones is, it seems like he also has his favourites and stubborn opinions, just like Gatland and Howley do. As for your point about Scarlets' bonus points, what you say is technically true, BUT the difference is all of Scarlets' nine bonus points this season have been from tries, whereas the teams around them have a mixture of try and losing bonus points.


Ashton actually didn't score many tries for England. He scored 19 in 38 games. Seems impressive until you realise 7 of those were from 2 games (Italy and Romania) and only 8 were against teams that, at the time, were in the top 10 nations in the world. He also went a whole year and a half with England without scoring a try. Goode was selected for England, he has 21 caps, which is just a shade less than Watson and Nowell.

I maintain that if you took the Scarlets team and they played the teams Wales played, the results would be worse on average. Hell if you could clone players and have Scarlets playing Wales, I'd back Wales to win 9/10 times.


I completely disagree. Some of the Scarlets players are Lions and Welsh players. Some should be especially James Davies and Steff Evans!

It is a nonsensical what you are saying! The Scarlets have dispatched with ease the Ospreys, Leinster and now Munster! They have plenty of Lions in their ranks! Watching this turgind England v Baa Baas game says it all!!!

Wales need Pivac/jones/Hayward to manage and we would be up there with the All Blacks! Too much negativity being purveyed here - let us be pleased in the fact that the Scarklets are playing ASTONISHING rugby in this modern game!




In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


Mon May 29, 2017 9:05 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
buglet wrote:
In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Excellent post!

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Mon May 29, 2017 11:10 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
A few of the Scarlets play for Wales as well.

Both centres, a handful of forwards and that. And a scrumhalf and a fullback and one of the wings.

Some will even be flying down south shortly.

Do you guys watch the Scarlets regularly and watch Wales highlights?

As for Wellies, he'll have a column in The Llanelli Star soon if this keeps on happening.

Winning the PRO12, and playing good rugby? Tremendous.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Mon May 29, 2017 11:23 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Tony Panties wrote:
buglet wrote:
In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Excellent post!



Why thank you sir! I just thought that a little more perspective was needed on theo ne side and a bit more credit on the other.


Mon May 29, 2017 11:29 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
buglet wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
buglet wrote:
In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Excellent post!



Why thank you sir! I just thought that a little more perspective was needed on theo ne side and a bit more credit on the other.


Buglet, to square the circle ... this is what I posted in the 'Pivac/Jones for Wales' thread elsewhere and hopefully complements yours ;)

Tony Panties wrote:
Buglet has made the point in an excellent post in another stream .... we should learn from what Pivac/Jones have achieved, not only in results but change of emphasis and use and manipulation of talents that has improved players significantly and the team ethic created..

Of course it promotes their candidature for International coaching but I think that's too easy and missing the point.

The fundamental aspect of worth of talented coaches irrespective of origin must be a high priority this internal succession or local candidature should be completely revised and the emphasis and priority placed on Coaching talent and progression at whatever price Head Coach...(Stephen Jones has brought talent but has been developed too).

That's the message ..... deaf ears ? we'll see ...

The message also comes from Cotter, Schmidt et al and the other end of the spectrum is Toulouse's promoted from within obsession ....... with results for all to see .... Look what the La Rochelle coach has achieved with limited resources on and off the field and McGrath (?) at Saracens ..

For Gods sake smell the bloody coffee Welsh Rugby.

Gatland is now Seasons redundant and never really had a successful relationship with the Regions anyway
end of rant ;)

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Mon May 29, 2017 1:01 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Tony Panties wrote:
buglet wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
buglet wrote:
In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Excellent post!



Why thank you sir! I just thought that a little more perspective was needed on theo ne side and a bit more credit on the other.


Buglet, to square the circle ... this is what I posted in the 'Pivac/Jones for Wales' thread elsewhere and hopefully complements yours ;)

Tony Panties wrote:
Buglet has made the point in an excellent post in another stream .... we should learn from what Pivac/Jones have achieved, not only in results but change of emphasis and use and manipulation of talents that has improved players significantly and the team ethic created..

Of course it promotes their candidature for International coaching but I think that's too easy and missing the point.

The fundamental aspect of worth of talented coaches irrespective of origin must be a high priority this internal succession or local candidature should be completely revised and the emphasis and priority placed on Coaching talent and progression at whatever price Head Coach...(Stephen Jones has brought talent but has been developed too).

That's the message ..... deaf ears ? we'll see ...

The message also comes from Cotter, Schmidt et al and the other end of the spectrum is Toulouse's promoted from within obsession ....... with results for all to see .... Look what the La Rochelle coach has achieved with limited resources on and off the field and McGrath (?) at Saracens ..

For Gods sake smell the bloody coffee Welsh Rugby.

Gatland is now Seasons redundant and never really had a successful relationship with the Regions anyway
end of rant ;)




Yes, spot on TP!


Mon May 29, 2017 1:44 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
There needs to be some balance Scarlets have won 3 huge games at the end of the season in some style!

They peaked at the right time, the performance if the teams they faced were certainly not of international quality, they were error ridden and both Irish teams looked jaded. To an extent, this may have been totally due to the quality of the Scarlets, certainly partially due, but there were numerous aspects of the performance of both Irish teams that appeared self-inflicted. You can only beat whats put in front of you and the Scarlets went the full hog and hammered them.

The one thing about involvement in sport, are in the dark times, things are rarely as bleak as they appear and in the great times, there will be something along to bite you on the arse soon. The success of the coaches is undeniable, but if anyone thinks that SJ and WP appointment would suddenly transform Wales into a top 4 team i think they are deluded. That's not to say they may not be part of the answer, but only in the way that my elbow is part of my arm......kind of thing :scratch:

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Mon May 29, 2017 2:50 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Blindside wrote:
There needs to be some balance Scarlets have won 3 huge games at the end of the season in some style!

They peaked at the right time, the performance if the teams they faced were certainly not of international quality, they were error ridden and both Irish teams looked jaded. To an extent, this may have been totally due to the quality of the Scarlets, certainly partially due, but there were numerous aspects of the performance of both Irish teams that appeared self-inflicted. You can only beat whats put in front of you and the Scarlets went the full hog and hammered them.

The one thing about involvement in sport, are in the dark times, things are rarely as bleak as they appear and in the great times, there will be something along to bite you on the arse soon. The success of the coaches is undeniable, but if anyone thinks that SJ and WP appointment would suddenly transform Wales into a top 4 team i think they are deluded. That's not to say they may not be part of the answer, but only in the way that my elbow is part of my arm......kind of thing :scratch:


Lot of truth in that..as a microcosm, watch the first Scarlets try against Munster from the highlights. Foxy ( not the fastest) leaves Scannell for dead and the whole Irish defence cannot cover. I was amazed how easily the defensive cover collapsed during both Irish games. It was a very long season for the Irish players and it showed in those last 2 games.

It will be interesting to see how the Scarlets do next year before we buy in totally.

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Mon May 29, 2017 3:53 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
The proposition is a false one, and if anything takes something away from the Scarlets achievement. We should be honouring for being pro12 champions and winning by playing the kind of rugby that was part of my childhood dreams. Saying they are a better team than Wales is the type of self gratification best done in private.
There is a legitimate reason for asking questions of the national management group in the light of the Scarlets achievement. In that context I want to pay tribute to Samsung and Rob Evans who with only lightweight 2nd rows behind them nullified the effectiveness of two of the hest scrummaging teams in the NH, and who does McBride call into his squad but a couple of blokes who go backwards more often than not


Mon May 29, 2017 3:59 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Great point on lee and Evans. Samson such an unsung player in my book...


Mon May 29, 2017 5:31 pm
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