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Wales performance v Scarlets 
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
ICe, you can accept compliments gracefully, you curmudgeon. It won't demean you.

:D


Tue May 30, 2017 7:51 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
ICEverything wrote:
Bouch wrote:
ICEverything wrote:

My next statement may be so obvious that you would think that anyone capable of thought would understand and agree with it. I think the answer in future has to be to develop skills within the regions (and lower tiers and age grade) that can be utilised by the national coaches.


You've been reading other people's posts again haven't you?

Felinfoel bois have said that since 1995.

I never pretended it was an original thought. Just an obvious one.

You can 'cut and paste' the next sentence and use it as a reply to me. 'That's a fantastic contribution to our collective wisdom ICE'.
:D

Nothing wrong with cut and paste, if appropriate.
If not appropriate and passing it off as your own work then plagerism comes to mind. :D
Nevertheless, I always enjoy Bouch's posts. They are mostly appropriate. :thumbup:


Tue May 30, 2017 11:43 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
ICEverything wrote:
mr messy wrote:
buglet wrote:

In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


i do like this post.

the welsh back line, and in particular the 3/4s, are are particularly poor for wales, and yet 3 of the 5 in the scarlets also start for wales. there was a post somewhere saying how players were criticised for not performing for their regions like they do for wales, but now can be criticised for not performing for wales like they do for their regions.

as for coaching wales, gatland came in with previous international experience, having coached all over the world and won domestic tournaments in new zealand, and the league and european cup with wasps. gatland may be past his best before date, and pivac and jones have just won the pro12, but it is still significantly below the standard that has been set on a cv when appointing a coach.

I'm sure I read somwhere that Gatland had picked a conservative simple style of rugby because the players didn't have the skill set or wherewithall to execute a more complex game plan. I have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems that the Scarlets coaching team have worked hard on player skills. This has resulted for instance in props and locks in the backline who can pass the ball as well as taking contact when needed, and also being able to think for themselves as to which play to make. Even JD2 now gives try scoring passes.

My next statement may be so obvious that you would think that anyone capable of thought would understand and agree with it. I think the answer in future has to be to develop skills within the regions (and lower tiers and age grade) that can be utilised by the national coaches.


I wasn't criticising the scarlets coaches, it was suppose to be complimenting them as they're getting the best out of players that the welsh set up isn't able to.

I'm going to disagree with the bit in red and think the critical bit is in brackets. I would like to think that the players have the core skills by the time they are at the regions for the regional coaches to utilise


Tue May 30, 2017 12:10 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
as they're getting the best out of players that the welsh set up isn't able to.


Thank you. simpler said and clearer than my waffling.

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Tue May 30, 2017 3:12 pm
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
Fattaff wrote:
as they're getting the best out of players that the welsh set up isn't able to.

Thank you. simpler said and clearer than my waffling.


The lack of enthusiasm by Scarlets players when playing for McBryde and Co. is a factor? Is that what you're saying?

:shock:


Wed May 31, 2017 5:54 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
mr messy wrote:
ICEverything wrote:
mr messy wrote:
buglet wrote:

In a sense this is the wrong debate to be having, club / regional rugby being such a different animal to the international game.

The real point here is to compare what Pivac and Jones have done in a relatively short time at Scarlets and their exciting play as compared with the sterility we have seen for some time with Wales. It does show the importance of coaching and although I don't think anyone is making the serious suggestion that the Scarlets could somehow substitute for Wales, it is frustrating that the innate conservatism of the Welsh set up means that some promising players (and not just from Scarlets) are not being given a chance. Jonathan Davies has been asserting incessantly that Wales are trying to evolve their style but I have seen no evidence for that. Look at how Scott Williams is playing for his region; when playing for his country he is just being turned into a smaller Jamie Roberts.

So, I think Pivac and Jones are showing what can be done and that there are players in Wales with a higher skill level than is being demonstrated at present by the national side. Of course, being a great club coaching team does not always mean that this success will be transferred to a national side but the difference seems to be stark. There are lessons to be learned here.


i do like this post.

the welsh back line, and in particular the 3/4s, are are particularly poor for wales, and yet 3 of the 5 in the scarlets also start for wales. there was a post somewhere saying how players were criticised for not performing for their regions like they do for wales, but now can be criticised for not performing for wales like they do for their regions.

as for coaching wales, gatland came in with previous international experience, having coached all over the world and won domestic tournaments in new zealand, and the league and european cup with wasps. gatland may be past his best before date, and pivac and jones have just won the pro12, but it is still significantly below the standard that has been set on a cv when appointing a coach.

I'm sure I read somwhere that Gatland had picked a conservative simple style of rugby because the players didn't have the skill set or wherewithall to execute a more complex game plan. I have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems that the Scarlets coaching team have worked hard on player skills. This has resulted for instance in props and locks in the backline who can pass the ball as well as taking contact when needed, and also being able to think for themselves as to which play to make. Even JD2 now gives try scoring passes.

My next statement may be so obvious that you would think that anyone capable of thought would understand and agree with it. I think the answer in future has to be to develop skills within the regions (and lower tiers and age grade) that can be utilised by the national coaches.


I wasn't criticising the scarlets coaches, it was suppose to be complimenting them as they're getting the best out of players that the welsh set up isn't able to.

I'm going to disagree with the bit in red and think the critical bit is in brackets. I would like to think that the players have the core skills by the time they are at the regions for the regional coaches to utilise

I wasn't suggesting that you were criticising anyone, apologies if I gave that impression. Yes, I agree with your second bit - Maybe what I meant was that at regional level, players are encourages to use the skills they have.

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Wed May 31, 2017 7:25 am
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Post Re: Wales performance v Scarlets
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
For me the issue is the Welsh selectors have lost their objectivity - possibly due to being there too long

When a new player comes through he has to take the place of a player the current set up have many years of memory. Your not just going up against current form but past form and in some cases glories

Watching the side at the moment is painful as it's very muddled, muddled thinking, selection etc

I am not sure the scarlets set up would sort out all problems in Welsh
Rugby but it could wipe the slate clean...


Very well put, that's exactly how I see the Welsh set up at the moment.


Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:01 am
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