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Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up? 
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Oh and as for "easy bonus points", look no further than Newcastle, Worcester Warriors, Bristol, London Welsh etc. (When the latter famously lost all its matches in the 2014-15 season, it only obtained one bonus point, whereas when Zebre lost all its matches in its inaugural 2012-13 season, it obtained ten bonus points).


Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:53 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
pythagoras wrote:
In that article Llew referenced about Leinster rugby it mentions 155 schools in the system.
Looking at the Leinster schools' cup for 2016 it looks like just 16 schools participated. All were the usual suspects with 14 of the 16 being
from the Pale and all being fee-paying schools, afaik.
(Interestingly one of the two non-Pale schools is actually based in Munster, Roscrea, the beaten finalists.)


From previous experience never mention the Pale or some barsteward pulls out the 17th century Pale boundary map that includes most of Leinster to the Shannon and Waterford and part of Tipp making you look a right twat.


Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:42 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
najbritcol wrote:
Daf12 wrote:
Irish sides are fine. Glasgow are decent. Ospreys usually up there.

Scarlets, Blues, Dragons, Edinburgh, Traviso and Zebre are off the pace.

We (Welsh) complain about the standard of the league, that's one eyed. The problem is us, the Welsh regions. We have one strong side/region but the rest are poor and have been for many years. The Ospreys have dominated the Welsh representation in the league and only Welah side to win the league. Could do again this year.

The other three regions need to sort it out. Ospreys are by no means perfect, but are certainly ahead of the pack. I hope they all catch up and the games/league is better for it.

Edinburgh and the Italian sides are a lost cause, neither have offered anything and are constantly looked as at "an easy bonus point" which devalues the league.

There's rumours of a Rome based side, which would offer more in terms of travelling support but hardly any regional rugby fans travel. I hope this starts to change as the main difference for me, is the off field crowds, media and money in the other leagues.

At present, I'd say the best sides in the pro12 are equal to any English side, if not better. Saracens are formidable, but so are Munster etc...

The Pro12 could be a quality league if ALL sides take it more seriously and the bottom half of the league Buck up their ideas.


Just for the record, the Scarlets won the Celtic League in 2004, a year before the Ospreys' first league title, and depending on how things go could be in contention this year. Although the Blues have never won the league, they did come second several years in a row before play-offs were introduced in 2010, and around that time won the Anglo-Welsh Cup and the European Challenge Cup. The one region which has been indisputably useless and ill-managed has been the Dragons, which in its first two or three seasons actually did quite well, but over the years has squandered and overlooked a potentially big player base in Gwent - Newport, Ebbw Vale, Cross Keys, Bedwas and now Bargoed - in favour of crappy second-rate South Africans.



So by that thinking if the WRU extended the Premiership to 20 teams that would increase the player base supporting the regions. You would need to explain how Bargoed reaching the Principality Premiership created a single player :)

The player base in Wales in relation to the geography and the regions means that actually everyone is available to everyone. So it's all about who offers the best contracts and future.

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Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:31 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
pythagoras wrote:
Llew wrote:
pythagoras wrote:
I don't know that everything is as rosy in Irish rugby as it might appear.
There is still quite a narrow base, (the player numbers are grossly inflated) and still too much reliance on the same dozen or so schools.
All seems a bit top heavy and liable to collapse. I hope I'm being unduly pessimistic.


At Leinster at least, their conveyor belt of producing home grown talent looks pretty healthy.


Quote:
Academy the engine which drives a production line second to none in European game..........The real growth area in Leinster rugby is the club and youths game."


http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/e ... -1.2908852


Go the Blackrock College and get on the school team and you have a ridiculously good chance of becoming a professional rugby player.


I think the article recognises the contribution made by the private schools in Ireland. That said, you raise an interesting point.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=71418


Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:02 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
International Players who are also teachers seem to get good results occasionally once they stop playing full time ....

Not always, but quite often.


Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:49 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Or even schoolteachers who were never international players, for example the last 3 Ireland coaches.
Joe Schmidt, Declan Kidney and Eddie O'Sullivan.


Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Here is 1 thing which would improve the Pro12. Welsh teams trying to actually win it, and with edge.

Wales is a much better rugby nation than Ireland, by a big distance.

So, when are welsh regions just going to get sick of losing out to Irish provinces??

Now that would make for a great Pro-12.




???? by what criteria :scratch:
Quote:



ehhhh.....
Grand slams...
Head to head....
Rugby world cup....
Wales is one of only two countries were it is said rugby is the main sport (as opposed to the 4th sport).


Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:17 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Rock Boy wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Here is 1 thing which would improve the Pro12. Welsh teams trying to actually win it, and with edge.

Wales is a much better rugby nation than Ireland, by a big distance.

So, when are welsh regions just going to get sick of losing out to Irish provinces??

Now that would make for a great Pro-12.




???? by what criteria :scratch:
Quote:



ehhhh.....
Grand slams...
Head to head....
Rugby world cup....
Wales is one of only two countries were it is said rugby is the main sport (as opposed to the 4th sport).

Wales are generally better during the 6N, but Ireland are better when it comes to playing the SH teams and, needless to say, are more successful at club level. On the other hand, the Irish are arguably the worst chokers of all major rugby nations, as shown in the RWC, the 6N and the South Africa tour's second test.


Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:01 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
najbritcol wrote:
Wales are generally better during the 6N, but Ireland are better when it comes to playing the SH teams and, needless to say, are more successful at club level. On the other hand, the Irish are arguably the worst chokers of all major rugby nations, as shown in the RWC, the 6N and the South Africa tour's second test.


Not sure that that 'computes' :scratch:

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Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:11 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Tony Panties wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Wales are generally better during the 6N, but Ireland are better when it comes to playing the SH teams and, needless to say, are more successful at club level. On the other hand, the Irish are arguably the worst chokers of all major rugby nations, as shown in the RWC, the 6N and the South Africa tour's second test.


Not sure that that 'computes' :scratch:
. Their matches against Argentina, Wales, France, England and the second test against SA - in these matches they were either winning or close behind much of the time. They drew against Wales and lost the others.


Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:08 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
najbritcol wrote:
So far, in the European Champions Cup:

Scarlets beat Toulon. Connacht beat Wasps and Toulouse. Glasgow did the double over Racing 92 and thrashed Leicester Tigers. Leinster did the double over Northampton, including handing them a record European defeat yesterday. Munster handed Leicester Tigers a record European defeat last week and came close to victory again yesterday but for a late Owen Wlliams penalty.

Furthermore, in the European Challenge Cup:

Edinburgh beat Stade Francais with just fourteen men and, after being thrashed at half-time in the reverse fixture this weekend, came back strongly enough to win a losing bonus point. They also beat Harlequins. Ospreys have been massacring everyone left right and centre. Even Treviso managed to do the double over Bayonne.

In other words, can those who constantly claim that the Pro 12 is very much the inferior relation to the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14 JUST SHUT UP?

I don't think many here think now that the pro 12 is at fault just our inept clubs that play in it.

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Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:41 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Rock Boy wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Here is 1 thing which would improve the Pro12. Welsh teams trying to actually win it, and with edge.

Wales is a much better rugby nation than Ireland, by a big distance.

So, when are welsh regions just going to get sick of losing out to Irish provinces??

Now that would make for a great Pro-12.




???? by what criteria :scratch:
Quote:



ehhhh.....
Grand slams...
Head to head....
Rugby world cup....
Wales is one of only two countries were it is said rugby is the main sport (as opposed to the 4th sport).




ehhh .... are you a real
Grand slams i will give you as even a broken clock is right twice a day

Heads ups Since 2000 is 12-8 To Ireland if you take it back from 1990 its 21-11

Rugby World cup, pretty inconclusive. Wales have reached the 1/4 final stage 5 times, Ireland Six, but in the 5 times wales had a third and a forth.

European club success... no contest Ireland.
Pro 12...... Ireland far superior
Numbers of players ... .Ireland
Crowds, no contest Ireland

Which really proves that you are talking complete shit.

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Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:13 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Here is 1 thing which would improve the Pro12. Welsh teams trying to actually win it, and with edge.

Wales is a much better rugby nation than Ireland, by a big distance.

So, when are welsh regions just going to get sick of losing out to Irish provinces??

Now that would make for a great Pro-12.




???? by what criteria :scratch:
Quote:



ehhhh.....
Grand slams...
Head to head....
Rugby world cup....
Wales is one of only two countries were it is said rugby is the main sport (as opposed to the 4th sport).




ehhh .... are you a real
Grand slams i will give you as even a broken clock is right twice a day

Heads ups Since 2000 is 12-8 To Ireland if you take it back from 1990 its 21-11

Rugby World cup, pretty inconclusive. Wales have reached the 1/4 final stage 5 times, Ireland Six, but in the 5 times wales had a third and a forth.

European club success... no contest Ireland.
Pro 12...... Ireland far superior
Numbers of players ... .Ireland
Crowds, no contest Ireland

Which really proves that you are talking complete shit.



Picking I know, but a broken clock is not necessarily right twice a day. A stopped clock is. :D (could have a hand broken off, or be running fast/slow etc)

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Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:44 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
soap wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Here is 1 thing which would improve the Pro12. Welsh teams trying to actually win it, and with edge.

Wales is a much better rugby nation than Ireland, by a big distance.

So, when are welsh regions just going to get sick of losing out to Irish provinces??

Now that would make for a great Pro-12.




???? by what criteria :scratch:
Quote:



ehhhh.....
Grand slams...
Head to head....
Rugby world cup....
Wales is one of only two countries were it is said rugby is the main sport (as opposed to the 4th sport).




ehhh .... are you a real
Grand slams i will give you as even a broken clock is right twice a day

Heads ups Since 2000 is 12-8 To Ireland if you take it back from 1990 its 21-11

Rugby World cup, pretty inconclusive. Wales have reached the 1/4 final stage 5 times, Ireland Six, but in the 5 times wales had a third and a forth.

European club success... no contest Ireland.
Pro 12...... Ireland far superior
Numbers of players ... .Ireland
Crowds, no contest Ireland

Which really proves that you are talking complete shit.



Picking I know, but a broken clock is not necessarily right twice a day. A stopped clock is. :D (could have a hand broken off, or be running fast/slow etc)



Fair point,,, i will use your post as proof, that i can accept when i am wrong :D

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“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:55 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Rock Boy wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Rock Boy wrote:
Here is 1 thing which would improve the Pro12. Welsh teams trying to actually win it, and with edge.

Wales is a much better rugby nation than Ireland, by a big distance.

So, when are welsh regions just going to get sick of losing out to Irish provinces??

Now that would make for a great Pro-12.




???? by what criteria :scratch:
Quote:



ehhhh.....
Grand slams...
Head to head....
Rugby world cup....
Wales is one of only two countries were it is said rugby is the main sport (as opposed to the 4th sport).


I disagree, wales may have more slams than ireland, but that i don't think that means that ireland are a much better rugby nation than ireland.

ireland are way ahead of wales if you consider overall playing criteria such as
1 - games against in new zealand in professional era
2 - games against south africa in professional era. Ireland have more wins and have won in SA, wales have never won in SA.
3 - games against australia in profesisonal era. Ireland have more wins, and have actually beaten oz in a professional world cup.
4 - average finishing position in 6 nations is higher for Ireland
5 - number of games won in 6 nations is higher for Ireland
6 - Ireland have finished above wales in 6 nations more than Wales have finished above Ireland
7 - Wales have the worst finishing positions in 6 nations when compared with Ireland
8 - number of tripple crowns in 6 nations is higher for Ireland
9 - Wales have a wooden spoon in 6 nations, Ireland don't
10 - ireland have scored more points and conceded less points than Wales in the 6 nations.


as for head to head, since 2000 ireland have won 12 games, wales 8, with 1 draw. since 1995 (game went pro) that changes to 17 ireland wins and 9 welsh wins. ireland's biggets win is 54-10 in ireland (2002), or 36-6 away in cardiff (2001). The welsh biggest winning margin is 32-20 in cardiff (2005) and 30-21 in dublin. (1998).

and that's before we even get to the club side the discussion where where all 4 irish teams have won the league, and 3 of the sides have won the main european tournament.


Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:08 pm
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