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Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up? 
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Post Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
So far, in the European Champions Cup:

Scarlets beat Toulon. Connacht beat Wasps and Toulouse. Glasgow did the double over Racing 92 and thrashed Leicester Tigers. Leinster did the double over Northampton, including handing them a record European defeat yesterday. Munster handed Leicester Tigers a record European defeat last week and came close to victory again yesterday but for a late Owen Wlliams penalty.

Furthermore, in the European Challenge Cup:

Edinburgh beat Stade Francais with just fourteen men and, after being thrashed at half-time in the reverse fixture this weekend, came back strongly enough to win a losing bonus point. They also beat Harlequins. Ospreys have been massacring everyone left right and centre. Even Treviso managed to do the double over Bayonne.

In other words, can those who constantly claim that the Pro 12 is very much the inferior relation to the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14 JUST SHUT UP?


Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:41 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Because I don't like the Welsh teams n it does not mean I hate it , very strong word that , one I very rarely use .

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Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:54 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
I don't think the Pro12 is necessarily the problem. I think it's the lack of interesting matches coupled with the poor performances of the Welsh teams.

Sure, the Scarlets won today and I would love to see them do well, but their win is their first in four againdt Toulon and their overall record, or indeed the record of most Welsh teams is pretty poor in the HC or Champions Cup.

There is good call to say the Irish teams are bloody good at it though, with numerous wins to their name
Furthermore, the Irish teams are more consistently at the top of the Pro12 than the Welsh teams.

Sorry for being negative, I would love to see the Welsh teams do betyer. But using the results of the Irish in particular is disingenuous when applied to the Italian teams.


Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:32 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Cymru am byth wrote:
I don't think the Pro12 is necessarily the problem. I think it's the lack of interesting matches coupled with the poor performances of the Welsh teams.

Sure, the Scarlets won today and I would love to see them do well, but their win is their first in four againdt Toulon and their overall record, or indeed the record of most Welsh teams is pretty poor in the HC or Champions Cup.

There is good call to say the Irish teams are bloody good at it though, with numerous wins to their name
Furthermore, the Irish teams are more consistently at the top of the Pro12 than the Welsh teams.

Sorry for being negative, I would love to see the Welsh teams do betyer. But using the results of the Irish in particular is disingenuous when applied to the Italian teams.


The system needs a revamp, and leadership, but that takes courage, but the current WRU senior management seems to think that masterly inactivity is the way forward.

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Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:47 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
The only people who say they hate the P12 are the ones using it as an excuse for their clubs failings despite all the evidence to the contrary.

All 3 leagues have good, mediocre and poor sides

The only real difference is money and looking at the last 2 weeks RCC results money doesn't necessarily buy you wins.

Its the mentalists who refuse to see beyond the clubhouse bar that hate it

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Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:57 pm
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Fids the Blindside wrote:
The only people who say they hate the P12 are the ones using it as an excuse for their clubs failings despite all the evidence to the contrary.

All 3 leagues have good, mediocre and poor sides

The only real difference is money and looking at the last 2 weeks RCC results money doesn't necessarily buy you wins.

Its the mentalists who refuse to see beyond the clubhouse bar that hate it


Exactly so. :clap:


Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:00 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
najbritcol wrote:
So far, in the European Champions Cup:

Scarlets beat Toulon. Connacht beat Wasps and Toulouse. Glasgow did the double over Racing 92 and thrashed Leicester Tigers. Leinster did the double over Northampton, including handing them a record European defeat yesterday. Munster handed Leicester Tigers a record European defeat last week and came close to victory again yesterday but for a late Owen Wlliams penalty.

Furthermore, in the European Challenge Cup:

Edinburgh beat Stade Francais with just fourteen men and, after being thrashed at half-time in the reverse fixture this weekend, came back strongly enough to win a losing bonus point. They also beat Harlequins. Ospreys have been massacring everyone left right and centre. Even Treviso managed to do the double over Bayonne.

In other words, can those who constantly claim that the Pro 12 is very much the inferior relation to the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14 JUST SHUT UP?


Part of the problem is that you very rarely see the players that are currently doing so well in Europe playing in the Pro12. Instead, you mostly see second choice players, who in the case of the Welsh sides, struggle even at that level.


Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:00 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
Fids the Blindside wrote:
The only people who say they hate the P12 are the ones using it as an excuse for their clubs failings despite all the evidence to the contrary.

All 3 leagues have good, mediocre and poor sides

The only real difference is money and looking at the last 2 weeks RCC results money doesn't necessarily buy you wins.

Its the mentalists who refuse to see beyond the clubhouse bar that hate it


Ie. the ones who actually fork out money to go and watch it rather than watch it from the comfort of an armchair.


Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:02 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
tom21 wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
So far, in the European Champions Cup:

Scarlets beat Toulon. Connacht beat Wasps and Toulouse. Glasgow did the double over Racing 92 and thrashed Leicester Tigers. Leinster did the double over Northampton, including handing them a record European defeat yesterday. Munster handed Leicester Tigers a record European defeat last week and came close to victory again yesterday but for a late Owen Wlliams penalty.

Furthermore, in the European Challenge Cup:

Edinburgh beat Stade Francais with just fourteen men and, after being thrashed at half-time in the reverse fixture this weekend, came back strongly enough to win a losing bonus point. They also beat Harlequins. Ospreys have been massacring everyone left right and centre. Even Treviso managed to do the double over Bayonne.

In other words, can those who constantly claim that the Pro 12 is very much the inferior relation to the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14 JUST SHUT UP?


Part of the problem is that you very rarely see the players that are currently doing so well in Europe playing in the Pro12. Instead, you mostly see second choice players, who in the case of the Welsh sides, struggle even at that level.


"Very rarely" is an exaggeration. Of course what you say is true during the international periods, but what makes the difference in the Aviva and the Top 14 is that (a) the English and French internationals are more spread out between the clubs than are their Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian counterparts, which means they don't lose as many key players during these times and (b) those two leagues have more foreign players (some but by no means all among the best in the world) who can fill in when the home-grown players are away, whereas the Celtic countries and Italy are much more reliant on second-choice or even sometimes Academy players during the international periods.

Besides, squad rotation is perfectly normal, and indeed why should Leinster and the Ospreys use the same players against Zebre that they would against each other?


Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:08 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
From what I can tell over the last few years, the general hierarchy with some minor variation seems to be this:

Irish teams>Glasgow/Ospreys>rest of Welsh teams>Edinburgh>Italian teams.


Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:29 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
najbritcol wrote:
tom21 wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
So far, in the European Champions Cup:

Scarlets beat Toulon. Connacht beat Wasps and Toulouse. Glasgow did the double over Racing 92 and thrashed Leicester Tigers. Leinster did the double over Northampton, including handing them a record European defeat yesterday. Munster handed Leicester Tigers a record European defeat last week and came close to victory again yesterday but for a late Owen Wlliams penalty.

Furthermore, in the European Challenge Cup:

Edinburgh beat Stade Francais with just fourteen men and, after being thrashed at half-time in the reverse fixture this weekend, came back strongly enough to win a losing bonus point. They also beat Harlequins. Ospreys have been massacring everyone left right and centre. Even Treviso managed to do the double over Bayonne.

In other words, can those who constantly claim that the Pro 12 is very much the inferior relation to the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14 JUST SHUT UP?


Part of the problem is that you very rarely see the players that are currently doing so well in Europe playing in the Pro12. Instead, you mostly see second choice players, who in the case of the Welsh sides, struggle even at that level.


"Very rarely" is an exaggeration. Of course what you say is true during the international periods, but what makes the difference in the Aviva and the Top 14 is that (a) the English and French internationals are more spread out between the clubs than are their Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian counterparts, which means they don't lose as many key players during these times and (b) those two leagues have more foreign players (some but by no means all among the best in the world) who can fill in when the home-grown players are away, whereas the Celtic countries and Italy are much more reliant on second-choice or even sometimes Academy players during the international periods.

Besides, squad rotation is perfectly normal, and indeed why should Leinster and the Ospreys use the same players against Zebre that they would against each other?


Just as in the RWC, Wales' squad against Uruguay was rather different than it was against England and Australia...


Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:03 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
najbritcol wrote:
, but what makes the difference in the Aviva and the Top 14 is that (a) the English and French internationals are more spread out between the clubs than are their Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian counterparts, which means they don't lose as many key players during these times and (b) those two leagues have more foreign players (some but by no means all among the best in the world) who can fill in when the home-grown players are away, whereas the Celtic countries and Italy are much more reliant on second-choice or even sometimes Academy players during the international periods.



Naaj, again, I think that you misread the position :

Toulon lose a helluva lot of International players during AI's and World Cups, these AI's Toulon lost 10+ players, other Clubs similarly ... especiallly Fijians, Georgians etc ....
That is one of the reasons why Boudjellal formally took WR to court this year.

Racing and Toulon made up the % of the french squad.

Top14 have very strong, in depth squads, but they also have a limit of Pro Contracts ... from memory I think that it is 32, + players who are in the first year of a Pro contract and + a player on the 2nd year of pro contract if he was developed by that Club + injury joker who formally replaces a long term injured original squad member. Dewi Morris continually states the size of french squads ... he doesn't understand this stat.

As we've discussed multiple times recently you often shoot from the hip on these stats and seemingly cherry pick items that aren't what you first imagine?

I think that that there are distinct privileges of the franglais advantageous financial position and club support but don't forget that in thacase of France, for example, they have also suffered INternationally from the Club v Country bias.

Comparison across leagues is a complex item of comparison.

Ref also Fids response (above)

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Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:59 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

PS I think that the Pro12 performance to date in the Champs Cup has been excellent.

Quality and commitment considerable and pool positions very well earned.

The Challenge Cup is a sad indictment of the Euro set up and was before the revision.

The excellent performance in tha Champs Cup will not, however, improve their financial position or ensure consistent performance in the future.

The whole N Hemp structure is unbalanced and missedthe boat that a Conference fed european tournament could have achieved.

Finally, I will say that despite my comments on Challenge quality the likes of Osps are really setting themselves up for a positive potentail future that could run and run. At the same time support levels are not improved over a long period. The 8,9XX Scarlets attendance for a vital match and a significant win was poor.

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Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:16 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
tom21 wrote:
Fids the Blindside wrote:
The only people who say they hate the P12 are the ones using it as an excuse for their clubs failings despite all the evidence to the contrary.

All 3 leagues have good, mediocre and poor sides

The only real difference is money and looking at the last 2 weeks RCC results money doesn't necessarily buy you wins.

Its the mentalists who refuse to see beyond the clubhouse bar that hate it


Ie. the ones who actually fork out money to go and watch it rather than watch it from the comfort of an armchair.


yawn

Its the 4 clubs who have created this situation not those outside looking in at the cosy all for one attitude of 4 clubs who have been gifted the game.

More people would as you state fork out if had some affinity

Your reply is old and worn out, it has never held water and never will.

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Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:45 am
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Post Re: Could the Pro12 haters now please shut up?
It seems to me to be a strange logic that people who question what the pro 12 serve up are told they have no right to a view. Or that the "success" of sides in the pro 12 are a reflection of the success of the Pro 12 itself.

I think it is difficult not to have a of admiration for the way that the Irish provinces have approached European competition, creating great occasions and great success. It is a reflection of Irish rugby and the way they use the Pro 12 is a part of that. Similarly to an extent Glasgow are doing the same.

In some way we now feel that our rugby is fine because other countries are stepping up to the challenge of European competition and we happen to play in the same league as them. Bit like saying Wersh International rugby is in a good place because Ireland beet NZ.

The Ospreys shoot cannon fodder out of the stadium and all is well. :) That Ospreys did not even qualify for Europes main competition.

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Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:37 pm
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