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Pro12 Growth 
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
bumble wrote:
Llew wrote:
The RFU & PRL have just agreed on £200M+ deal that takes them though until July 2024. I really can't see them wanting to change anything. They have it all.


Why would that affect the domestic competitions they play in?



Quote:
"Success for England and the clubs depends on an effective partnership between the RFU and Premiership Rugby on many levels," HRH Mark McCafferty


Personally, I can't see PRL having any desire to enter in to any change of domestic league, unless it would be of significant financial benefit to them. They hold all the cards, and more.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:50 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Tony Panties wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on why there appears to disparity between Competition Income received by WRU and IRFU given both have same number of teams and both are in the same competitions?
These are the amounts shown in their annual reports as to what they received and I used average exchange rates for the year to allow for variations.
Competition Income from PRO12 and ERC/ECPR only. Covers Participation, TV revenues, and performance of teams and progression in the comps and any performance payments for making playoffs/finals in the PRO12. 2012 is the only year where the IRFU appears to have received more €250k approx.

Competition Income 2011-2016
WRU Euro equiv - IRFU - Difference €

2011 £9.1m (€10.624m) - €9.324m - 1.304m
2012 £9.2m (€10.890m) - €11.137m - (0.247m)
2013 £9.2m (€11.168m) - €10.763m - 0.405m
2014 £8.86m (€10.619m) - €10.335m - 0.284m
2015 £8.13m (€10.685m) - €9.707m - 0.978m
2016 £9.7m (€12.974m) - €10.585m - 2.389m

Total £54.19m (€66.96m) - €61.851m - €5.109m difference over the period


I believe that the Pro12 TV proceeds are not pro rated
You also should take Euro proceeds into account eg prizemoney where Ireland outstrip Wales
Note EPCR prizemoney was significantly changed from the ERC version
etc


I was taking performance money into account which is why I was wondering why WRU received more in each year particularly 2012. How does the TV money get distributed? All the BBC Wales money goes to the WRU, rather than being put into a central pot?


Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:58 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Llew wrote:
bumble wrote:
Llew wrote:
The RFU & PRL have just agreed on £200M+ deal that takes them though until July 2024. I really can't see them wanting to change anything. They have it all.


Why would that affect the domestic competitions they play in?



Quote:
"Success for England and the clubs depends on an effective partnership between the RFU and Premiership Rugby on many levels," HRH Mark McCafferty




You haven't answered the question. That deal is all about player welfare, release and compensation. It is nothing to do with ensuring they stay in a single league or tv deals etc. So it would continue unaltered whatever competition PRL sides play in, as long as there are a similar number of games.

You do hit the nail on the head though:

Quote:
Personally, I can't see PRL having any desire to enter in to any change of domestic league, unless it would be of significant financial benefit to them. They hold all the cards, and more.


:thumbright:


Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:59 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
It's like me turning up at Buckingham Palace and telling the Queen she'd be loads better off with me in her family.
It's the delusion of a fantasist who cannot accept reality.

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:55 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
This year's pantomime
Starring the Regions as Cinderella.
Cinders just wants to go to the ball so she can meet dashing Prince PRL and jump on his bone. But evil Stepmother Roger Lewis won't let her go.
All she needs is an imaginary fairy to wave a magic wand and turn a pumpkin into a viable business solution.

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:11 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Tony Panties wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on why there appears to disparity between Competition Income received by WRU and IRFU given both have same number of teams and both are in the same competitions?
These are the amounts shown in their annual reports as to what they received and I used average exchange rates for the year to allow for variations.
Competition Income from PRO12 and ERC/ECPR only. Covers Participation, TV revenues, and performance of teams and progression in the comps and any performance payments for making playoffs/finals in the PRO12. 2012 is the only year where the IRFU appears to have received more €250k approx.

Competition Income 2011-2016
WRU Euro equiv - IRFU - Difference €

2011 £9.1m (€10.624m) - €9.324m - 1.304m
2012 £9.2m (€10.890m) - €11.137m - (0.247m)
2013 £9.2m (€11.168m) - €10.763m - 0.405m
2014 £8.86m (€10.619m) - €10.335m - 0.284m
2015 £8.13m (€10.685m) - €9.707m - 0.978m
2016 £9.7m (€12.974m) - €10.585m - 2.389m

Total £54.19m (€66.96m) - €61.851m - €5.109m difference over the period


I believe that the Pro12 TV proceeds are not pro rated
You also should take Euro proceeds into account eg prizemoney where Ireland outstrip Wales
Note EPCR prizemoney was significantly changed from the ERC version
etc


As you know the Comp income component values are not itemised in their reports.

Just had a quick look at some stats that I had easily available

Take 2014

ERC allocation to Clubs was 43m euros

Applying the arithmetic of prizemony and remainder shareout the IRFU were, imo, allocated ~~1.7m euros more than the WRU.

If that is correct then the proportion of Guinnes Pro12/Celtic Rugby allocation should provide the answer to the discrepancies (IF prizemoney is treated as part of the Competition income).

I don't have the time to consider the components and comparison allocations of Pro12 detail at the mo.

Welsh Regions Annual Reports dont separate Euro revenue and the Irish Province accounts are a bag of worms given their interwoven relationship with the Union and their individual accounts are not readily available although I do have sight of some.

Also .. had a quick look at your exchange rates and there's significant change post 2013/2014 Season and Accounts were signed off Jan 2015. Dependent on exchange rate rationale and timing by WRU there's significant opportunity for extra benefit in euro comparisons and significant WRU £ equivalent benefit?

[Image

Hope this helps ... the analysis requires a lot of detailed work and some assumptions....

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:38 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
ps Pot ^^^^^^^^^^

When converting £ to Euro equivalents how did you reconcile the exch rate rationale?

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:16 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Tony Panties wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on why there appears to disparity between Competition Income received by WRU and IRFU given both have same number of teams and both are in the same competitions?
These are the amounts shown in their annual reports as to what they received and I used average exchange rates for the year to allow for variations.
Competition Income from PRO12 and ERC/ECPR only. Covers Participation, TV revenues, and performance of teams and progression in the comps and any performance payments for making playoffs/finals in the PRO12. 2012 is the only year where the IRFU appears to have received more €250k approx.

Competition Income 2011-2016
WRU Euro equiv - IRFU - Difference €

2011 £9.1m (€10.624m) - €9.324m - 1.304m
2012 £9.2m (€10.890m) - €11.137m - (0.247m)
2013 £9.2m (€11.168m) - €10.763m - 0.405m
2014 £8.86m (€10.619m) - €10.335m - 0.284m
2015 £8.13m (€10.685m) - €9.707m - 0.978m
2016 £9.7m (€12.974m) - €10.585m - 2.389m

Total £54.19m (€66.96m) - €61.851m - €5.109m difference over the period


I believe that the Pro12 TV proceeds are not pro rated
You also should take Euro proceeds into account eg prizemoney where Ireland outstrip Wales
Note EPCR prizemoney was significantly changed from the ERC version
etc


As you know the Comp income component values are not itemised in their reports.

Just had a quick look at some stats that I had easily available

Take 2014

ERC allocation to Clubs was 43m euros

Applying the arithmetic of prizemony and remainder shareout the IRFU were, imo, allocated ~~1.7m euros more than the WRU.

If that is correct then the proportion of Guinnes Pro12/Celtic Rugby allocation should provide the answer to the discrepancies (IF prizemoney is treated as part of the Competition income).

I don't have the time to consider the components and comparison allocations of Pro12 detail at the mo.

Welsh Regions Annual Reports dont separate Euro revenue and the Irish Province accounts are a bag of worms given their interwoven relationship with the Union and their individual accounts are not readily available although I do have sight of some.

Also .. had a quick look at your exchange rates and there's significant change post 2013/2014 Season and Accounts were signed off Jan 2015. Dependent on exchange rate rationale and timing by WRU there's significant opportunity for extra benefit in euro comparisons and significant WRU £ equivalent benefit?

[Image

Hope this helps ... the analysis requires a lot of detailed work and some assumptions....


Thanks for that, Tony. The Income goes to the Unions in the first instance which is where I got totals from and using as comparisons. The year ends are April (IRFU) and June (WRU). WRU is required to pass on Income under the RSA to the regions after any costs involved. They don't seem to levy any cost since the full amount is ascribed in their breakdown of allocations to the Regions. IRFU also collects the Income from Celtic Rugby and EPCR - the two organising bodies. The income includes participation, performance/prize and TV monies.

So the variation is in the PRO12 allocation - presumably the terrestrial TV deals being allocated by TV territory/union. Sky TV monies are allocated by number of teams amongst the three shareholders - WRU, SRU, IRFU. FIR has separate TV deal.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:18 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Pot Hale wrote:
Thanks for that, Tony. The Income goes to the Unions in the first instance which is where I got totals from and using as comparisons. The year ends are April (IRFU) and June (WRU). WRU is required to pass on Income under the RSA to the regions after any costs involved. They don't seem to levy any cost since the full amount is ascribed in their breakdown of allocations to the Regions. IRFU also collects the Income from Celtic Rugby and EPCR - the two organising bodies. The income includes participation, performance/prize and TV monies.

So the variation is in the PRO12 allocation - presumably the terrestrial TV deals being allocated by TV territory/union. Sky TV monies are allocated by number of teams amongst the three shareholders - WRU, SRU, IRFU. FIR has separate TV deal.



I am aware of process I used ERC accounts and rules in my post ie overall allocation, prizemoney winnings, division of remainder etc

I'm not sure of Pro 12 revenue detail and allocation...

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:26 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Not sure how life can go on.... ;) :D

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:14 am
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Tony Panties wrote:
ps Pot ^^^^^^^^^^

When converting £ to Euro equivalents how did you reconcile the exch rate rationale?


I used the annual average from official exchange rates in each year.


Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:26 am
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Pot Hale wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
ps Pot ^^^^^^^^^^

When converting £ to Euro equivalents how did you reconcile the exch rate rationale?


I used the annual average from official exchange rates in each year.


Replied by PM

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:01 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
what is the point of Tels last post :D

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:37 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
i
Fids the Blindside wrote:
what is the point of Tels last post :D


Just to say that I was going to continue the conversation but was also sensitive to the lack of general interest (there didn't appear to be much to date) so I would take it offline

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:41 pm
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Post Re: Pro12 Growth
Fids the Blindside wrote:
what is the point of Tels last 6018 posts :D



Sorry Tel only joking couldn't resist

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:45 pm
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