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The perils of Ancestry........ 
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Bryson is good.

As the last ice age ended almost 12 millennia ago - and there was a massive loss of life when the giant Tsunami of 8 millennia ago obliterated umpteen of our ancestors down in the South East corner - our whole population is a bit weird.

No wonder the little huddlers down there by the Thames are so different.

Snag is the buggers have the power and the money these days.

They're rich ants ....

Looking ahead a few millennia, in the 1990s geologists realised that the Cumbre Vieja volcano in La Palma, in the Canary Islands off North Africa, could pose a tsunami risk to Britain and Ireland and elsewhere.

They concluded that a future volcanic eruption will result in the mass of rock alongside the volcanoes breaking off and falling into the sea as a massive landslide.

This in turn will generate a huge tsunami, which will surge into the Atlantic Ocean and hit Spain, Portugal, Trump Land, France, the southern and western parts of Ireland and the south coast of England, Wales, etc..

It was estimated that the waves will take around 6 hours to reach the British Isles, and that when they do they will be around 10 metres high.

There is considerable debate about the timing of the Tsunami as researchers at Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands found Cumbre Vieja to be much more stable than was previously believed, estimating that it would take at least another 10,000 years for the island to grow enough for there to be a danger.

By then we'll have started living on other planets anyway, leaving the earth as a resort to be visited as a treat.

No worries.

Our race will go on, I reckon. Quite what they'll think of the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries would be worth knowing.

It's a fecking mess from our point of view but a few inventors might transform the landscape and the oceans with some really efficient ways to clean the planet without giving different problems to the masses that will make their lives a total misery.

From that starting point, we can make some progress.

;)


Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:39 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
soap wrote:
eog wrote:
soap wrote:
Don't know which part of Wales but...

Population of Glamorgan in 1861~ 326,254
Population of Glamorgan in 1911~ 1,120,910

That is way too fast for breeding, especially when you consider the infant death rate in Merthyr was thought to have been over 30%

Many Polish or Ukrainian immigrants took up common Welsh names, partly to fit in and partly because those who did the paperwork on entry could not spell their names, and the person could not spell in English either.

There was a huge influx of Farm workers from Somerset, many of whose also changed their names as they were 'tied' to land owners for a period of time. Slaves in all but name, as they sign to work a landowners farm for X years to be allowed to grow on a small patch of their own. (like Robin Hood's outlaws)


The population explosion in the South Wales coalfield has and is used as a hostage to political agendas. In reality the situation was complex including eg migrants/immigrants moving in and then out of the coalfield.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=fimm20

A lot of the migration in the late 19th century and most of the migration into the coalfield in the early 20th was from the West of England. This fact has been used to maintain that the identity of South Wales is more British than Welsh and therefore it follows that the political allegiance of it's inhabitants is to Britain (85% England) and not Cymru.

Modern genetic studies have shown that the place in England where Celtic ancestry is most prevalent is the West Country. So genetically it's more than likely that the population of the South Wales coalfield was always been predominantly Celtic. That could be used as an argument that maintains that the identity of the area is more Welsh than British and therefore the political allegiance of it's inhabitants should be to Cymru and not Britain (85% England).

Both are of course flawed arguments, people are not required to identify and give their political allegiance based on census statistics or genetics.

However you won't see the latter being used to gain traction for a Welsh nation state but you will see the former being used deliberately, subtly and most often unquestioned as a tool to maintain the UK nation state.


There is probably something in it, but I grew up in South Wales in the 1950's, and the old people I remember were not Irish but those I mention above. In particular there were many Italian and Polish first generation along with kids whos grandparents had strong English accents.

There is probably no way to check 'internal' migration or transients.

There is a place in Porth Rhondda where some guys from Liverpool (some claim it was Scotland though) were bound for America, but the ship was held up in Cardiff en route, so they sought temporary work. It was at the time when many houses had to be built for migrants to the South Wales Coalfield, so there was plenty of work, and they prospered. They had how ever promised to send letters home from America to their family, so rather than upset them, had been handing the letters to shipping passing through Cardiff and asking that it be delivered to Liverpool, and telling everyone they were doing fine in America.

Turns out that work was so good here they never actually went, but built their houses in Porth Rhondda and called it America place, so they could truthfully report they were doing well and living in America.


Have a look at a book called 'Wild Wales' by George Borrows, I think he mentions that. He travelled around Wales in the 19th Century and wrote a book about it.


Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:39 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
soap wrote:
eog wrote:
soap wrote:
Don't know which part of Wales but...

Population of Glamorgan in 1861~ 326,254
Population of Glamorgan in 1911~ 1,120,910

That is way too fast for breeding, especially when you consider the infant death rate in Merthyr was thought to have been over 30%

Many Polish or Ukrainian immigrants took up common Welsh names, partly to fit in and partly because those who did the paperwork on entry could not spell their names, and the person could not spell in English either.

There was a huge influx of Farm workers from Somerset, many of whose also changed their names as they were 'tied' to land owners for a period of time. Slaves in all but name, as they sign to work a landowners farm for X years to be allowed to grow on a small patch of their own. (like Robin Hood's outlaws)


The population explosion in the South Wales coalfield has and is used as a hostage to political agendas. In reality the situation was complex including eg migrants/immigrants moving in and then out of the coalfield.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=fimm20

A lot of the migration in the late 19th century and most of the migration into the coalfield in the early 20th was from the West of England. This fact has been used to maintain that the identity of South Wales is more British than Welsh and therefore it follows that the political allegiance of it's inhabitants is to Britain (85% England) and not Cymru.

Modern genetic studies have shown that the place in England where Celtic ancestry is most prevalent is the West Country. So genetically it's more than likely that the population of the South Wales coalfield was always been predominantly Celtic. That could be used as an argument that maintains that the identity of the area is more Welsh than British and therefore the political allegiance of it's inhabitants should be to Cymru and not Britain (85% England).

Both are of course flawed arguments, people are not required to identify and give their political allegiance based on census statistics or genetics.

However you won't see the latter being used to gain traction for a Welsh nation state but you will see the former being used deliberately, subtly and most often unquestioned as a tool to maintain the UK nation state.


There is probably something in it, but I grew up in South Wales in the 1950's, and the old people I remember were not Irish but those I mention above. In particular there were many Italian and Polish first generation along with kids whos grandparents had strong English accents.

There is probably no way to check 'internal' migration or transients.

There is a place in Porth Rhondda where some guys from Liverpool (some claim it was Scotland though) were bound for America, but the ship was held up in Cardiff en route, so they sought temporary work. It was at the time when many houses had to be built for migrants to the South Wales Coalfield, so there was plenty of work, and they prospered. They had how ever promised to send letters home from America to their family, so rather than upset them, had been handing the letters to shipping passing through Cardiff and asking that it be delivered to Liverpool, and telling everyone they were doing fine in America.

Turns out that work was so good here they never actually went, but built their houses in Porth Rhondda and called it America place, so they could truthfully report they were doing well and living in America.


Have a look at a book called 'Wild Wales' by George Borrows, I think he mentions that. He travelled around Wales in the 19th Century and wrote a book about it.


Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:39 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Link to Wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Wales


Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:41 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Bouch wrote:
Bryson is good.

As the last ice age ended almost 12 millennia ago - and there was a massive loss of life when the giant Tsunami of 8 millennia ago obliterated umpteen of our ancestors down in the South East corner - our whole population is a bit weird.

No wonder the little huddlers down there by the Thames are so different.

Snag is the buggers have the power and the money these days.

They're rich ants ....

Looking ahead a few millennia, in the 1990s geologists realised that the Cumbre Vieja volcano in La Palma, in the Canary Islands off North Africa, could pose a tsunami risk to Britain and Ireland and elsewhere.

They concluded that a future volcanic eruption will result in the mass of rock alongside the volcanoes breaking off and falling into the sea as a massive landslide.

This in turn will generate a huge tsunami, which will surge into the Atlantic Ocean and hit Spain, Portugal, Trump Land, France, the southern and western parts of Ireland and the south coast of England, Wales, etc..

It was estimated that the waves will take around 6 hours to reach the British Isles, and that when they do they will be around 10 metres high.

There is considerable debate about the timing of the Tsunami as researchers at Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands found Cumbre Vieja to be much more stable than was previously believed, estimating that it would take at least another 10,000 years for the island to grow enough for there to be a danger.

By then we'll have started living on other planets anyway, leaving the earth as a resort to be visited as a treat.

No worries.

Our race will go on, I reckon. Quite what they'll think of the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries would be worth knowing.

It's a fecking mess from our point of view but a few inventors might transform the landscape and the oceans with some really efficient ways to clean the planet without giving different problems to the masses that will make their lives a total misery.

From that starting point, we can make some progress.

;)


Was it a tsunami that caused the post Ice Age deaths?

Another book to read is Homo Britannicus by Chris Stringer. He provides a history of human habitation in Britain over the last few hundred thousand years.

Post ice age would have seen mass melting of the ice sheets and a general rise in sea levels, flooding coastal regions.


Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:45 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
All it needs is joined up thinking for the whole planet , not just my little bit of it

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Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:22 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Cymru am byth wrote:


Thanks, I will look at that. Is it an audio book? it says "His voice is distinctive and at times a little overbearing" as if we can hear it?

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Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:55 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
soap wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:


Thanks, I will look at that. Is it an audio book? it says "His voice is distinctive and at times a little overbearing" as if we can hear it?


The book I read was an old copy. He is very opinionated. He was an English man that learned Welsh, up to a point. When he was in North Wales he said that people thought he was from South Wales and then vice versa in South Wales. He seemed to enjoy correcting fluent, first language Welsh speakers. Who, didn't seem to appreciate it.

It isn't too hard to read but the copy I have is written in columns with small writing. So physically it was difficult. Worth finding a new copy.

If you like this, check out Gerald of Wales' book.


Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:54 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Cymru am byth wrote:
soap wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:


Thanks, I will look at that. Is it an audio book? it says "His voice is distinctive and at times a little overbearing" as if we can hear it?


The book I read was an old copy. He is very opinionated. He was an English man that learned Welsh, up to a point. When he was in North Wales he said that people thought he was from South Wales and then vice versa in South Wales. He seemed to enjoy correcting fluent, first language Welsh speakers. Who, didn't seem to appreciate it.

It isn't too hard to read but the copy I have is written in columns with small writing. So physically it was difficult. Worth finding a new copy.

If you like this, check out Gerald of Wales' book.


I think I had trouble reading that book some years ago. May be thinking of the wrong one though. I liked Gwyn A Williams, still leaf through it now and again

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Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:14 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Cymru am byth wrote:

Was it a tsunami that caused the post Ice Age deaths?

Another book to read is Homo Britannicus by Chris Stringer. He provides a history of human habitation in Britain over the last few hundred thousand years.

Post ice age would have seen mass melting of the ice sheets and a general rise in sea levels, flooding coastal regions.


The TV programme shown a week or so back was a jawdropper, CAB.

The Tsunami hit hard and the land bridge to Europe was destroyed (See Doggerland).

Many, many people lost their lives in the cataclysmic disaster.


That's a good book reference lads, I've not pawed through it yet.

:thumbup:


Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:50 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Bouch wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:

Was it a tsunami that caused the post Ice Age deaths?

Another book to read is Homo Britannicus by Chris Stringer. He provides a history of human habitation in Britain over the last few hundred thousand years.

Post ice age would have seen mass melting of the ice sheets and a general rise in sea levels, flooding coastal regions.


The TV programme shown a week or so back was a jawdropper, CAB.

The Tsunami hit hard and the land bridge to Europe was destroyed (See Doggerland).

Many, many people lost their lives in the cataclysmic disaster.


That's a good book reference lads, I've not pawed through it yet.

:thumbup:


The way I read it, and I don't recall where, it was the thaw of an Ice dam across Norway and Denmark that sent a tidal wave with huge chunks of ice, that scoured out what was existing river sized Chanels than did the dirty work. After that it was inundated as much of it was below the new sea level. There is a good youtube lecture on it, but can not find it with a quick google.

Ther is an illistration here, but not the one I was looking for

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=map+europe+15000+bp&client=opera&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=kTFaWkVS-J53pM%253A%252CUd3XK1UKnLpORM%252C_&usg=__vzENeyzASHUPqeqhibbwtwYxROM%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwqqSR64TaAhUJKewKHez9DV0Q9QEIZzAF#imgrc=yfpMlLTVEsUifM:

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Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:17 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Whoa! I've just returned from a few days in Porthcawl, fit, rested and tanned but shocked by the educated posts on this thread. Going to go through it checking out all the links. :shock:


Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:13 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
ayjay wrote:
I'll break it to them gently.


They'll have probably heard of Alfred The Great and Wessex, a great King who the english take as one of their own ... but england didn't exist then so their theft is just Norman nonsense.

As things turned out, in those days, South Wales had more in common with Wessex than with North Wales.

You only have to listen to the Cardiff and Bristol accents on tv shows to realise the commonality of our folks.

They just happen to have to pay to come home over the bridge is all.


Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:02 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
They'll have probably heard of Alfred The Great and Wessex, a great King who the english take as one of their own ... but england didn't exist then so their theft is just Norman nonsense.

As things turned out, in those days, South Wales had more in common with Wessex than with North Wales. Based on what criteria?

You only have to listen to the Cardiff and Bristol accents on tv shows to realise the commonality of our folks. Using accents as evidence for that is dodgy. Especially as until half way through the industrial revolution the overwhelming accent in South Wales would have been accents spoken in the Welsh language and not in English.
They just happen to have to pay to come home over the bridge is all.


Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:57 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Very informative thread.

Probably worthy of its own thread but how come as near neighbours Irish and Welsh language are so different? Surely we had regular interactions with each other. Irish, Manx, Scots Gaelic I believe can be understood by the speakers of each of the other two to a great degree but Welsh is another matter.


Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:07 pm
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