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The perils of Ancestry........ 
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Post The perils of Ancestry........
I've always considered myself pure Welsh even though sadly I don't speak the language. Let's see, solid Welsh surname, love choir music, enjoy the odd pint, a Wales win /loss will set the tone for how my week goes,could single handedly solve all the WRU's problems on and off the field and naturally, proudly have all the inbred predjudices relating to England rugby.
Last week I tried Ancestry.com.
I find my great grandmother on my mother's side was a Somerset girl born and bred whose ancestors were French Hugeneots who settled in England after fleeing France in the 1500s.I'm thinking of how I'm going to break this news to my rugby crazy grandsons who are regularly threatened with having to wear an England jersey if they don't behave and explain to the eldest why there might be a good reason why he closely resembles Owen Farrell.
Through a mist of tears I turn to my wife's history what can go wrong here? She's Nantyglo born and bred, Dad played rugby for many years for the village team and was a Blaina supporter all his life, she'll be fine.
Turns out her Dad's family on his father's side were Wiltshire people and his mother's folk were all from the Bristol area.I'm picking the boys up from school today. I'll break it to them gently.


Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:21 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Don't know which part of Wales but...

Population of Glamorgan in 1861~ 326,254
Population of Glamorgan in 1911~ 1,120,910

That is way too fast for breeding, especially when you consider the infant death rate in Merthyr was thought to have been over 30%

Many Polish or Ukrainian immigrants took up common Welsh names, partly to fit in and partly because those who did the paperwork on entry could not spell their names, and the person could not spell in English either.

There was a huge influx of Farm workers from Somerset, many of whose also changed their names as they were 'tied' to land owners for a period of time. Slaves in all but name, as they sign to work a landowners farm for X years to be allowed to grow on a small patch of their own. (like Robin Hood's outlaws)

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Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:47 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
ayjay wrote:
I've always considered myself pure Welsh even though sadly I don't speak the language. Let's see, solid Welsh surname, love choir music, enjoy the odd pint, a Wales win /loss will set the tone for how my week goes,could single handedly solve all the WRU's problems on and off the field and naturally, proudly have all the inbred predjudices relating to England rugby.
Last week I tried Ancestry.com.

I find my great grandmother on my mother's side was a Somerset girl born and bred whose ancestors were French Hugeneots who settled in England after fleeing France in the 1500s.I'm thinking of how I'm going to break this news to my rugby crazy grandsons who are regularly threatened with having to wear an England jersey if they don't behave and explain to the eldest why there might be a good reason why he closely resembles Owen Farrell.
Through a mist of tears I turn to my wife's history what can go wrong here? She's Nantyglo born and bred, Dad played rugby for many years for the village team and was a Blaina supporter all his life, she'll be fine.
Turns out her Dad's family on his father's side were Wiltshire people and his mother's folk were all from the Bristol area.I'm picking the boys up from school today. I'll break it to them gently.


Is it that fast?

2 of my cousins (one in Canada, one in the US) have reserached our family tree ...

no surprises, ... we were roundheads ...

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Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:13 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
soap wrote:

Many Polish or Ukrainian immigrants took up common Welsh names, partly to fit in and partly because those who did the paperwork on entry could not spell their names, and the person could not spell in English either.


Bloody EU!


Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:46 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Tony Panties wrote:
no surprises, ... we were roundheads ...


The military wing of the Labour Party circa 1644. :thumbup:


Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:50 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
ayjay wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
no surprises, ... we were roundheads ...


The military wing of the Labour Party circa 1644. :thumbup:


I thought it meant circumcised :dontknow:

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Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:56 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
soap wrote:
ayjay wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
no surprises, ... we were roundheads ...


The military wing of the Labour Party circa 1644. :thumbup:


I thought it meant circumcised :dontknow:


:D

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Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:14 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Ancestry.com and all paper trail family tree research is of limited accuracy which only reduces in accuracy the more generations back you go. The paternal line being seriously unreliable in the long term due to cuckolded husbands etc and even the maternal line being unreliable due to adoptions due to various reasons. There will be plenty of cases where a unmarried young woman's baby was suddenly presented to the world as the child of an unrelated older aunt.

Genetic tests are available. However they are of limited value in confirming or refuting what it is you think you are and really a decent understanding of genetics is needed for someone to appreciate what the results say and don't say.


Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:35 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Gary Bushell, one of the Sun's xenophobes in chief, under went a DNA test for a TV show and discovered he was black. It was very, very funny. :D

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Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:19 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
soap wrote:
Don't know which part of Wales but...

Population of Glamorgan in 1861~ 326,254
Population of Glamorgan in 1911~ 1,120,910

That is way too fast for breeding, especially when you consider the infant death rate in Merthyr was thought to have been over 30%

Many Polish or Ukrainian immigrants took up common Welsh names, partly to fit in and partly because those who did the paperwork on entry could not spell their names, and the person could not spell in English either.

There was a huge influx of Farm workers from Somerset, many of whose also changed their names as they were 'tied' to land owners for a period of time. Slaves in all but name, as they sign to work a landowners farm for X years to be allowed to grow on a small patch of their own. (like Robin Hood's outlaws)


The population explosion in the South Wales coalfield has and is used as a hostage to political agendas. In reality the situation was complex including eg migrants/immigrants moving in and then out of the coalfield.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=fimm20

A lot of the migration in the late 19th century and most of the migration into the coalfield in the early 20th was from the West of England. This fact has been used to maintain that the identity of South Wales is more British than Welsh and therefore it follows that the political allegiance of it's inhabitants is to Britain (85% England) and not Cymru.

Modern genetic studies have shown that the place in England where Celtic ancestry is most prevalent is the West Country. So genetically it's more than likely that the population of the South Wales coalfield was always been predominantly Celtic. That could be used as an argument that maintains that the identity of the area is more Welsh than British and therefore the political allegiance of it's inhabitants should be to Cymru and not Britain (85% England).

Both are of course flawed arguments, people are not required to identify and give their political allegiance based on census statistics or genetics.

However you won't see the latter being used to gain traction for a Welsh nation state but you will see the former being used deliberately, subtly and most often unquestioned as a tool to maintain the UK nation state.


Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:29 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
There was a piece in Viz a few years ago about how Nick Griffin of BNP was the only pure blood British person alive and could trace his decendants back through Winston Churchill, Charles Darwin and back to British monkeys, from which he evolved. The point being, that if you go bacl far enough, you'll find all sorts of meanders in your family history..

This is a great bit from the Bill Bryson book, Short History.

Quote:
If your two parents hadn't bonded just when they did - possibly to the nanosecond - you wouldn't be here. And if their parents hadn't bonded in a precisely timely manner, you wouldn't be here either. And if their parents hadn't done likewise, and their parents before them, and so on, obviously and indefinitely, you wouldn't be here.

Push backwards through time and these ancestral debts begin to add up. Go back just eight generations ... and already there are over 250 people on whose timely couplings your existence depends. Continue further, to the time of Shakespeare ... and you have no fewer than 16,384 ancestors ...

At twenty generations ago, the number of people procreating on your behalf has risen to 1,048,576. Five generations before that, and there are no fewer than 33,554,432 men and women on whose devoted couplings our existence depends. By thirty generations ago, your total number of forebears - remember, these aren't cousins and aunts and other incidental relatives, but only parents and parents of parents in a line leading ineluctably to you - is over one billion (1,073,741,824, to be precise). If you go back sixty-four generations, to the time of the Romans, the number of people on whose cooperative efforts your eventual existence depends has risen to approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, which is several thousand times the total number of people who have ever lived.

Clearly something has gone wrong with our math here. The answer, it may interest you to learn, is that your line is not pure. You couldn't be here without a little incest - actually quite a lot of incest - albeit at a genetically discreet remove. With so many millions of ancestors in your background, there will have been many occasions when a relative from your mother's side of the family has procreated with some distant cousin from your father's ... In fact, if you are in a partnership now with someone from your own race and country, the chances are excellent that you are at some level related. Indeed, if you look around you on a bus or in a park or café or any crowded place, most of the people you see are very probably relatives. When someone boasts to you that he is descended from William the Conqueror or the Mayflower Pilgrims, you should answer at once: "Me, too!" In the most literal and fundamental sense we are all family. - Bill Bryson

http://epicwithane.blogspot.co.uk/2011/ ... s.html?m=1


Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:32 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
DP


Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:32 pm
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
He does not account for 'the DNA bottleneck' 70~odd thousand years ago where humanity was almost wiped out. There was a very small 'feedstock' but with a lot of 'previous form' that could reoccur at any time.

What is also scary is projecting forward. A couple have 4 kids, which is around the world norm,and a generation of say 20 years. It becomes 4 16, 64, 256, 1024, (100 years) 4096, 16384, 65536, well over a quarter of a million in 200 years. 1 million, 4 million, 16 million, 67 million in 300 years. form there it gets stupid. A billion pops up in the century, from one couple.

To give it some prospective, that is from around when they started transporting to Oz until now.

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Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:15 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
eog wrote:
soap wrote:
Don't know which part of Wales but...

Population of Glamorgan in 1861~ 326,254
Population of Glamorgan in 1911~ 1,120,910

That is way too fast for breeding, especially when you consider the infant death rate in Merthyr was thought to have been over 30%

Many Polish or Ukrainian immigrants took up common Welsh names, partly to fit in and partly because those who did the paperwork on entry could not spell their names, and the person could not spell in English either.

There was a huge influx of Farm workers from Somerset, many of whose also changed their names as they were 'tied' to land owners for a period of time. Slaves in all but name, as they sign to work a landowners farm for X years to be allowed to grow on a small patch of their own. (like Robin Hood's outlaws)


The population explosion in the South Wales coalfield has and is used as a hostage to political agendas. In reality the situation was complex including eg migrants/immigrants moving in and then out of the coalfield.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=fimm20

A lot of the migration in the late 19th century and most of the migration into the coalfield in the early 20th was from the West of England. This fact has been used to maintain that the identity of South Wales is more British than Welsh and therefore it follows that the political allegiance of it's inhabitants is to Britain (85% England) and not Cymru.

Modern genetic studies have shown that the place in England where Celtic ancestry is most prevalent is the West Country. So genetically it's more than likely that the population of the South Wales coalfield was always been predominantly Celtic. That could be used as an argument that maintains that the identity of the area is more Welsh than British and therefore the political allegiance of it's inhabitants should be to Cymru and not Britain (85% England).

Both are of course flawed arguments, people are not required to identify and give their political allegiance based on census statistics or genetics.

However you won't see the latter being used to gain traction for a Welsh nation state but you will see the former being used deliberately, subtly and most often unquestioned as a tool to maintain the UK nation state.


There is probably something in it, but I grew up in South Wales in the 1950's, and the old people I remember were not Irish but those I mention above. In particular there were many Italian and Polish first generation along with kids whos grandparents had strong English accents.

There is probably no way to check 'internal' migration or transients.

There is a place in Porth Rhondda where some guys from Liverpool (some claim it was Scotland though) were bound for America, but the ship was held up in Cardiff en route, so they sought temporary work. It was at the time when many houses had to be built for migrants to the South Wales Coalfield, so there was plenty of work, and they prospered. They had how ever promised to send letters home from America to their family, so rather than upset them, had been handing the letters to shipping passing through Cardiff and asking that it be delivered to Liverpool, and telling everyone they were doing fine in America.

Turns out that work was so good here they never actually went, but built their houses in Porth Rhondda and called it America place, so they could truthfully report they were doing well and living in America.

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Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:34 am
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Post Re: The perils of Ancestry........
Cymru am byth wrote:
There was a piece in Viz a few years ago about how Nick Griffin of BNP was the only pure blood British person alive and could trace his decendants back through Winston Churchill, Charles Darwin and back to British monkeys, from which he evolved. The point being, that if you go bacl far enough, you'll find all sorts of meanders in your family history..

This is a great bit from the Bill Bryson book, Short History.

Quote:
If your two parents hadn't bonded just when they did - possibly to the nanosecond - you wouldn't be here. And if their parents hadn't bonded in a precisely timely manner, you wouldn't be here either. And if their parents hadn't done likewise, and their parents before them, and so on, obviously and indefinitely, you wouldn't be here.

Push backwards through time and these ancestral debts begin to add up. Go back just eight generations ... and already there are over 250 people on whose timely couplings your existence depends. Continue further, to the time of Shakespeare ... and you have no fewer than 16,384 ancestors ...

At twenty generations ago, the number of people procreating on your behalf has risen to 1,048,576. Five generations before that, and there are no fewer than 33,554,432 men and women on whose devoted couplings our existence depends. By thirty generations ago, your total number of forebears - remember, these aren't cousins and aunts and other incidental relatives, but only parents and parents of parents in a line leading ineluctably to you - is over one billion (1,073,741,824, to be precise). If you go back sixty-four generations, to the time of the Romans, the number of people on whose cooperative efforts your eventual existence depends has risen to approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, which is several thousand times the total number of people who have ever lived.

Clearly something has gone wrong with our math here. The answer, it may interest you to learn, is that your line is not pure. You couldn't be here without a little incest - actually quite a lot of incest - albeit at a genetically discreet remove. With so many millions of ancestors in your background, there will have been many occasions when a relative from your mother's side of the family has procreated with some distant cousin from your father's ... In fact, if you are in a partnership now with someone from your own race and country, the chances are excellent that you are at some level related. Indeed, if you look around you on a bus or in a park or café or any crowded place, most of the people you see are very probably relatives. When someone boasts to you that he is descended from William the Conqueror or the Mayflower Pilgrims, you should answer at once: "Me, too!" In the most literal and fundamental sense we are all family. - Bill Bryson

http://epicwithane.blogspot.co.uk/2011/ ... s.html?m=1

On the flip side of that, Stephen Fry on QI asked the panel who among them was descended from Charlamgne , the answer anyone who had ancestors in Western Europe.

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Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:11 am
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