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Assisted dying. 
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Post Assisted dying.
Someone will probably tell me that this question belongs in the Political and 'Must not be discussed in front of the children' section.

Here goes though.

Can some medical/legal expert out there explain why the Legal and the Medical professions can take it upon themselves to decree that a very sick baby's life support can be withdrawn (i.e. the child be assisted to die) without fear of legal punishment whilst at the same time these self same Legal and Medical professions claim that they cannot assist an adult, in full control of his/her faculties (but suffering from, say Muscular Dystrophy), to die since this would, apparently, expose them to draconic legal penalties (i.e. very long prison sentences)?


The explanation had better be damn good though since I can't, for the life of me, see the difference between the two scenarios.


Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
You are not sovereign over your own body.

The state owns it.


Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
welshy34 wrote:
You are not sovereign over your own body.

The state owns it.



I hope to god that that is a facetious/cynical observation. :dontknow:


Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:17 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
I've sat and watched someone die. It's not pleasant. I've also had the reality of the situation explained to me by the resident doctor of the board. They pump you full of morphine so you're out of it, but essentially you die of dehydration and starvation over three to four days.

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Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:04 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
I would assume the difference is that by withdrawing care it may result in death, but assisted dying is putting something in place that hastens death. Not doing something is different to doing something. I dont know though

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Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
x_ile wrote:
welshy34 wrote:
You are not sovereign over your own body.

The state owns it.



I hope to god that that is a facetious/cynical observation. :dontknow:



Definitely not facetious.
Whether it's cynical or not depends on your precpective I guess. I don't believe so but, others will.
Doctors have to do a complex job.

Bringing religion in to the equation is interesting though as IT also purports to have a higher claim on YOURSELF.
I'm not religous myself.
Spiritual but, not religous.

The state forbids that you end your own life. (It is illegal to even attempt it. IT would probbaly like to punish you for being successful too but it needs a physical body to do this).
The state forbids anyone from ending your life on your behalf, despite you giving your consent. (Illegal - despite YOUR consent)
The Instrument of the State (e.g. NHS) will end your life by injecting drugs to remove your consciousness and depriving you of food and water until you die if IT considers your quality of life to be poor enough (irrespective of what YOU might have thought).

Euthanasia is commonplace among the medical profession.
It's ironic that only those that have taken an oath to preserve life are the people who have PERMISSION to end life on a regular basis.

My only judgement about this is to deny the state's claim on my body.

As Spinbreath said - watching someone die is not pleasant.


Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:50 am
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
Blindside wrote:
I would assume the difference is that by withdrawing care it may result in death, but assisted dying is putting something in place that hastens death. Not doing something is different to doing something. I dont know though
It's interesting isn't it.
I think that's the nub of the argument.
I don't really see the difference myself.
One inevitably leads to the other so pretending that it isn't causal is just DENIAL.

I think it's very difficult for society to accept that in the 'right' circumstances (whatever that really is), care givers will choose to suspend care knowing that those they are caring for, will die as a result.
Feels counter intuitive.
Unless of course you are around death all the time in which case you may think it's the 'right' and humane thing to do.
I think a lot of people aren't even aware of DNR either. (Something that is applied to older people on a regular basis)

We use different ways of describing things to make ourselves feel better about it.


Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:01 am
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
They do turn off life support / not recussitate adults as well as children so I don't think that distinction exists like you're suggesting it does.

It has also struck me as highly hypocritical that the above is done and, as has been pointed out, effectively means a slow death by dehydration/starvation, as a "humane" alternative to continued treatment. If the decision has been made that it's in someone's best interests that they die, surely it makes sense to do that in the most humane way possible.

It's a courtesy we extend to dogs, but not people.

I suspect a lot of it, as has been said already, has to do with abjugating personality responsibility and the perception that to let something happen something by not acting is somehow better than do something by acting (the "do you change the track" thought experiment). I don't think religion actually does come into it directly, though these ideas may be a hangover from our more religious past.


Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:11 am
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
It's the definition that's the difficulty to ensure correct 'treatment' and avoid malpractice.

There are options in place, ...when my mother was dying from a severe brain haemorrhage I was asked if I would agree to no attempts to resuscitate etc snd just to provide palliative care

Also,the above statement that suicide is illegal, ...I thought that this had been revoked, certainly in terms of 'punishment' ??

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Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:30 am
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
There is a distinct difference, technically, legally and morally, between not prolonging/enabling life and taking an active decision to end it.

I would not like to make the decision fore someone else, but have made my feelings know to my family for if I am ever in that position.

A medic can do things for all the right reasons, but how do you separate out the Shipmans?

I think a (sort of ) middle ground of being able to ask for a self administered dose may be viable, but then again, people may feel, or even be told, they are being a burden, and decide to go for the wrong reasons.

A sticky one. I dont think religion should have any part in it, as the person asking for it would make the decision, not 'Oh its in the Bible/Koran you should not die by your own hand' if you believe or not, it is not allowed.


There is no real right or wrong, and as I said, I would not like to have the power/duty to make the decision.

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Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:55 am
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
Quote:
There is a distinct difference, technically, legally and morally, between not prolonging/enabling life and taking an active decision to end it.


Is there really? What is the moral distinction? You assert that the difference is there but don't explain it.

If you decide to "not prolong/enable life" youare making a decision which has a 100% chance of leading to the death of the patient. I don't see how that is qualitatively different from deciding to ease their suffering by euthanasia.


Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:11 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
Figaro wrote:
Quote:
There is a distinct difference, technically, legally and morally, between not prolonging/enabling life and taking an active decision to end it.


Is there really? What is the moral distinction? You assert that the difference is there but don't explain it.

If you decide to "not prolong/enable life" youare making a decision which has a 100% chance of leading to the death of the patient. I don't see how that is qualitatively different from deciding to ease their suffering by euthanasia.


The same difference as if you were to fall and I fail to catch you, or if I pushed you.
3 different scenarios. One is a lack of action the other is a definite action.

Giving a lethal injection is a definite switch, not just lack of positive action

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Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:20 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
Quote:
if you were to fall and I fail to catch you, or if I pushed you


That's not the same though. Your failure to catch me could be because you tried and failed, because you were too far away, because you weren't strong enough, because you weren't fast enough, because you were worried you might get hurt yourself, etc. etc. - there are any number of reasons, many of them quite reasonable, as to why you might not act in that context, even if the end result - pushing or not catching - is the same.

The decision to euthanise as opposed to switch off life support leads to the same outcome for the patient, but the two options don't put any danger, difficulty or cost on the person making the decision other a perceived one.


Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:03 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
Tony Panties wrote:
Also,the above statement that suicide is illegal, ...I thought that this had been revoked, certainly in terms of 'punishment' ??
Thanks for the info Tel - somehow, I was completely unaware of that. :shock: Right, I'm off to .......... do some research.


Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:06 pm
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Post Re: Assisted dying.
Figaro wrote:
Quote:
if you were to fall and I fail to catch you, or if I pushed you


That's not the same though. Your failure to catch me could be because you tried and failed, because you were too far away, because you weren't strong enough, because you weren't fast enough, because you were worried you might get hurt yourself, etc. etc. - there are any number of reasons, many of them quite reasonable, as to why you might not act in that context, even if the end result - pushing or not catching - is the same.

The decision to euthanise as opposed to switch off life support leads to the same outcome for the patient, but the two options don't put any danger, difficulty or cost on the person making the decision other a perceived one.



You have complicated a simple example.... pushing and not catching may be the same to you, but there is a distinct difference in the eyes of the law. The fact that you think there should not be a difference is only your opinion. The fact that there is a difference is a fact. If you want to argue that there should be no difference then its totally different to arguing that there is not difference.

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“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:46 pm
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