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Do you support independence for Wales? 

Do you support independence for Wales?
Yes 42%  42%  [ 12 ]
No 39%  39%  [ 11 ]
Not immediately, but maybe in the more distant future 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 28

Do you support independence for Wales? 
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
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Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:31 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
soap wrote:
eog wrote:
Pretty much no hope if we look back and don't understand that we were conquered.


How many places in the entire world, ( including what is now called England, and what is now called Wales, but before the English ) can you think of that were not 'conquered' Well according to your first response - "If you believe we are a concurred people then you are on a downer for a start" you were under the impression that Wales was one of those places that wasn't conquered :roll: From Ur to Rome to America (all of it). Maybe the whole world should take the same position?

There are 195 countries in the world. Thirty four of those have been established or re-established since 1990. Some are full members of the EU and all have a seat at the UN. In Europe Scotland and Catalunya are likely to be additions in the near future.
I'm sure that in every case there were people native to those countries who predicted that the sky would fall in should their country break away.


But neither of those you mention are 'independent'. Catalunya is more or less a distinction of area that grows a wine grape, not a people. Having just typed that, I am now having a cup of tea and going to the next region south of it, which was conquered by the Muslims, and have to hope that my BRITISH passport works when I try to get back into Wales.
Enjoy the summer guys :D

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Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:51 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron wrote:
eog wrote:
Neither England, nor English culture existed at the time of the Romans :roll:
It's a fact not a matter of opinion do some research before talking rot
Pretty much no hope if we look back and don't understand that we were conquered.


Well done on proving my point, using YOUR definition of a conquered people as those who have lost all their cultures to have it supplant by the invaders, the fact that NO English culture presently exists that predates the creation to England is EXACTLY my point! that Our entire culture was wiped out and replaced with foreign cultures (those of the Romans, Germanic people and Normans) not a shred of pre-conquest British culture survived. The fact it did for you and didn't for us, by your definition, make England a conquered nation more than Wales.
You sound like you're regurgitating some bonkers English Defence League like propaganda. Or you are completely muddled regarding history confusing English British Welsh with abandon.

Beginning to see the ridiculous of your original claim yet? You talk about English culture whilst completely ignoring that English culture was itself a culture brought over through conquest! The English culture that took over Wales was the same culture that first took over England.
Then why are we having this discussion in English and not French?


Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:57 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Bouch wrote:
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:


Plaid don't "do" money and, it seems, neither do you.


Unlike the financial geniuses in recent Tory and Labour governments :lol:


You're proud of Plaid's failure?

There's no failure or success to be proud of. Plaid have never been in power.
However when Labour and the Tories are in power they fail Wales repeatedly.


Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:03 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
soap wrote:
eog wrote:
There are 195 countries in the world. Thirty four of those have been established or re-established since 1990. Some are full members of the EU and all have a seat at the UN. In Europe Scotland and Catalunya are likely to be additions in the near future.
I'm sure that in every case there were people native to those countries who predicted that the sky would fall in should their country break away.


But neither of those you mention are 'independent'. Catalunya is more or less a distinction of area that grows a wine grape, not a people. My guess is that you're just being provocative now rather than displaying any actual ignorance Having just typed that, I am now having a cup of tea and going to the next region south of it, which was conquered by the Muslims, and have to hope that my BRITISH passport works when I try to get back into Wales. So nothing of substance to contribute to our discussion then. Enjoy your trip.
Enjoy the summer guys :D


Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:08 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:


Plaid don't "do" money and, it seems, neither do you.


Unlike the financial geniuses in recent Tory and Labour governments :lol:


You're proud of Plaid's failure?


There's no failure or success to be proud of. Plaid have never been in power.


Er, try again.

Ever heard of that Solicitor from North Wales who was horrifically bad when sharing power at the Senedd? Every Businessman of note in Wales said he wasn't very good ...

Here he is - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ieuan-air-cardiff-anglesey-link-passenger-6876767


Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:19 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
soap wrote:
eog wrote:
There are 195 countries in the world. Thirty four of those have been established or re-established since 1990. Some are full members of the EU and all have a seat at the UN. In Europe Scotland and Catalunya are likely to be additions in the near future.
I'm sure that in every case there were people native to those countries who predicted that the sky would fall in should their country break away.


But neither of those you mention are 'independent'. Catalunya is more or less a distinction of area that grows a wine grape, not a people. My guess is that you're just being provocative now rather than displaying any actual ignorance Having just typed that, I am now having a cup of tea and going to the next region south of it, which was conquered by the Muslims, and have to hope that my BRITISH passport works when I try to get back into Wales. So nothing of substance to contribute to our discussion then. Enjoy your trip.
Enjoy the summer guys :D


A quickie from the airport.

First Modern Catalonia is a result of the second republic, and has different borders to Aragon.
Secondly, please post in your own post space not fill up other posts where it is not plain.

Right, fight mode now, bye

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Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:36 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Bouch wrote:
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:


Plaid don't "do" money and, it seems, neither do you.


Unlike the financial geniuses in recent Tory and Labour governments :lol:


You're proud of Plaid's failure?


There's no failure or success to be proud of. Plaid have never been in power.


Er, try again.

Ever heard of that Solicitor from North Wales who was horrifically bad when sharing power at the Senedd? Every Businessman of note in Wales said he wasn't very good ...

Here he is - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ieuan-air-cardiff-anglesey-link-passenger-6876767

I'm referring to real power like Labour and Tories have had on at a UK level for more than a century not being a junior partner in a one term coalition (with Labour) in Cardiff. It seems that you can't differentiate between the two.


Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:17 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
soap wrote:
A quickie from the airport.

First Modern Catalonia is a result of the second republic, and has different borders to Aragon. And your point is?
Secondly, please post in your own post space not fill up other posts where it is not plain. Is this plain enough for you. I'm assuming that you have colour vision

Right, fight mode now, bye

Take a trip up to Barcelona and visit the Catalunya Museum you could learn a lot regarding the history of Catalunya and how Catalans see themselves.


Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:25 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:
eog wrote:
Neither England, nor English culture existed at the time of the Romans :roll:
It's a fact not a matter of opinion do some research before talking rot
Pretty much no hope if we look back and don't understand that we were conquered.


Well done on proving my point, using YOUR definition of a conquered people as those who have lost all their cultures to have it supplant by the invaders, the fact that NO English culture presently exists that predates the creation to England is EXACTLY my point! that Our entire culture was wiped out and replaced with foreign cultures (those of the Romans, Germanic people and Normans) not a shred of pre-conquest British culture survived. The fact it did for you and didn't for us, by your definition, make England a conquered nation more than Wales.
You sound like you're regurgitating some bonkers English Defence League like propaganda. Or you are completely muddled regarding history confusing English British Welsh with abandon.

Beginning to see the ridiculous of your original claim yet? You talk about English culture whilst completely ignoring that English culture was itself a culture brought over through conquest! The English culture that took over Wales was the same culture that first took over England.
Then why are we having this discussion in English and not French?


So why are we speaking English, a language that is an amalgamation of a load of foreign languages with next to no connection to pre-conquest Britain? Might that be because the language spoken in England pre conquest has completely gone from England? Again what part can't you understand about the fact that English culture is a bloody conquered culture? Our language from foreigners, our law system, everything was brought from abroad and completely eradicated what was here originally. So for the umpteenth time, if the destruction and replacement of local culture by invading foreigners make a nation a conquered nation, tell me by what metric the Welsh are a conquered people but the English aren't.

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Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:16 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron wrote:
eog wrote:
Then why are we having this discussion in English and not French?


So why are we speaking English, a language that is an amalgamation of a load of foreign languages with next to no connection to pre-conquest Britain? You really are very ignorant about history aren't you. and yet again you confuse England and Britain. And if you want to describe English as an amalgamation of foreign languages then so to is your beloved Anglo Saxon Might that be because the language spoken in England pre conquest has completely gone from England? No it hasn't it's influence has continued through Middle English into modern EnglishAgain what part can't you understand about the fact that English culture is a bloody conquered culture? Now you're mixing up Anglo Saxon culture with English culture though Our language from foreigners, our law system, everything was brought from abroad and completely eradicated what was here originally. Originally it was from modern day Germany and Holland and had nothing to do with Britain So for the umpteenth time, if the destruction and replacement of local culture by invading foreigners make a nation a conquered nation, tell me by what metric the Welsh are a conquered people but the English aren't. Who's the boss of the English? If it's a people who are not the English then you've got a point if it's the English themselves then you're just echoing a faux argument made by those whining victim imitators of the EDL etc


Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:53 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
You really are very ignorant about history aren't you. and yet again you confuse England and Britain. And if you want to describe English as an amalgamation of foreign languages then so to is your beloved Anglo Saxon
Now you're mixing up Anglo Saxon culture with English culture
Originally it was from modern day Germany and Holland and had nothing to do with Britain
Who's the boss of the English? If it's a people who are not the English then you've got a point if it's the English themselves then you're just echoing a faux argument made by those whining victim imitators of the EDL etc



For god sake can you respond like normal people rather than replying in red in the quote? It' makes it a pain in the arse trying to respond.

Of course Anglo Saxon is a mix of foreign languages, THAT'S THE WHOLE BLOODY POINT! Seriously how can you be this dense? Let me put it to you in the simplest possible terms, pretty much EVERY country on the planet has been invaded and had their culture and language influenced or totally supplanted by another but there comes a point where you can't say they are a conquered people any more because the conquering culture simply becomes their culture. You are convinced the Welsh are a conquered people for something that happened 800 years ago! That culture and various aspects are long gone just like they are long gone from England! The same people and culture that invaded you invaded England first. You seem to think that the second they arrived in what is now England, they suddenly stopped being conquerors. So why do you say that 200 years on from being conquered, England isn't a conquered nation but 800 years on from being conquered Wales is? Also the fact you think I'm genuinely arguing that I think England is a conquered people rather than using it to highlight the absurdity of your claim shows it is you who fails to grasp what is being said.

Your complete inability to have any consistency in what you say is laughable. Oh moving the goal posts, who is the boss of the Yorkshire people? Oh it's not the Yorkshire people! Oppressed! Break a large entity down into smaller entities and of course no smaller entity will have full control. The fact you treat the English as some homogeneous block shows how little you understand about England. Britain is made up of many people with many cultures and you think you are oppressed because Wales doesn't control the entire legislative process of Britain!? Well what about if Wales splits off and then the North complain that the South controls everything and demand independence? What if they point to 1000 years ago where Wales was split into different areas, each with their own kings and laws. Oh let me guess, you'd suddenly draw an arbitrary boundary saying why that doesn't apply. Your entire 'argument' is little more than special pleading and moving the posts when it doesn't suit you.

Simple fact is the Welsh are not a conquered people. 800 years ago yes, now? No. If you want to try to build for the future by digging up centuries old grievances then you will fail before you even start.

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Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:43 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:
eog wrote:
Bouch wrote:


Plaid don't "do" money and, it seems, neither do you.


Unlike the financial geniuses in recent Tory and Labour governments :lol:


You're proud of Plaid's failure?


There's no failure or success to be proud of. Plaid have never been in power.


Er, try again.

Ever heard of that Solicitor from North Wales who was horrifically bad when sharing power at the Senedd? Every Businessman of note in Wales said he wasn't very good ...

Here he is - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ieuan-air-cardiff-anglesey-link-passenger-6876767


I'm referring to real power like Labour and Tories have had on at a UK level for more than a century not being a junior partner in a one term coalition (with Labour) in Cardiff. It seems that you can't differentiate between the two.


Tell you what, you stop moving the goalposts and we can still agree to disagree.


Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:41 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron wrote:

For god sake can you respond like normal people rather than replying in red in the quote? Yes I can and do but when a poster makes lots of points that need "debunking" addressing at least some of them one at a time, does I think, make the discussion easier to follow. them one by one rather than It' makes it a pain in the arse trying to respond.

Of course Anglo Saxon is a mix of foreign languages, THAT'S THE WHOLE BLOODY POINT! I don't think you know how to express your POINT. You stated that Anglo Saxon or as you labeled it "English" was here "originally". It wasn't, Anglo Saxon is by your definition as foreign to Britain as the Norman influenced Middle English that developed from it. the Seriously how can you be this dense? Let me put it to you in the simplest possible terms, pretty much EVERY country on the planet has been invaded and had their culture and language influenced or totally supplanted by another but there comes a point where you can't say they are a conquered people any more because the conquering culture simply becomes their culture. Just something to consider since you have a blind spot on this. By your logic all the people of the USA are as conquered as one another whether their are Native Americans from Dakota or WASPs (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) from New England. Note that the forefathers of many of those WASPs spoke German and Dutch and had German and Dutch cultures which they have subsequently lost You are convinced the Welsh are a conquered people for something that happened 800 years ago! At the moment what little self government Wales has is under threat due to the feared claw back of powers by Westminster after Brexit. The effects of something that happened 800 years ago are very much still in play. That culture and various aspects are long gone just like they are long gone from England! The same people and culture that invaded you invaded England first. However they adopted much of what was "English". The most obvious was the language which went on to develope from Anglo Saxon rather than being replaced with French. You seem to think that the second they arrived in what is now England, they suddenly stopped being conquerors. So why do you say that 200 years on from being conquered, England isn't a conquered nation but 800 years on from being conquered Wales is? Also the fact you think I'm genuinely arguing that I think England is a conquered people You avoid answering the question - Who's the boss of the English? rather than using it to highlight the absurdity of your claim shows it is you who fails to grasp what is being said.

Your complete inability to have any consistency in what you say is laughable. Oh moving the goal posts, who is the boss of the Yorkshire people? Yorkshire is part of England and from Alfred the Great's time has always seen itself that way. Your confusing a region with a nation. Oh it's not the Yorkshire people! Oppressed! Break a large entity down into smaller entities and of course no smaller entity The entity under discussion is the nation of Cymru not an English county.will have full control. The fact you treat the English as some homogeneous block The English identify themselves as a single block there is nowhere in England where the people of a county insist they are not English. Cornwall of course not being a part of England anywayshows how little you understand about England. Britain is made up of many people with many cultures and you think you are oppressed because Wales doesn't control the entire legislative process of Britain!? Well what about if Wales splits off and then the North complain that the South controls everything and demand independence? It wouldn't you know sweet fa about Cymru. What if they point to 1000 years ago where Wales was split into different areas, each with their own kings and laws. Oh let me guess, you'd suddenly draw an arbitrary boundary saying why that doesn't apply. King Offa defined the territory of Wales with a physical boundary as he knew the people beyond it were not Anglo Saxons. Of course there were different kingdoms and fighting between them here as there were in England and pretty much everywhere else in Europe. Your entire 'argument' is little more than special pleading and moving the posts when it doesn't suit you.

Simple fact is the Welsh are not a conquered people. 800 years ago yes, now? No. The mentality of many in Wales fits the mentality of conquered peoples across the world. The mentality of the English does not. If for arguments sake we accept your - the English people were conquered also - then they've got over it. So much so that there was an English Empire, which Wales was a possession of (however it was defined as being part of England)before the rebrand to British. If you want to try to build for the future by digging up centuries old grievances then you will fail before you even start. The grievances are current for example the Labour government of Wales support erecting a large sculpture of an Iron Ring at Fflint castle. As you probably haven't a clue what the Iron Ring represents it's the Edwardian castles in North Wales that were build by the Normans and their Anglo Saxon little helpers to conquer and subdue the Welsh. This is an example of a people revealing their mentality of the conquered by celebrating the deeds of those that conquered them.


Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:17 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Bouch wrote:
[quote="eog
I'm referring to real power like Labour and Tories have had on at a UK level for more than a century not being a junior partner in a one term coalition (with Labour) in Cardiff. It seems that you can't differentiate between the two.


Tell you what, you stop moving the goalposts and we can still agree to disagree.[/quote]

I'm yet to be convinced that you can even see any goalposts.


Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:27 am
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