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Do you support independence for Wales? 

Do you support independence for Wales?
Yes 42%  42%  [ 12 ]
No 39%  39%  [ 11 ]
Not immediately, but maybe in the more distant future 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 28

Do you support independence for Wales? 
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
I can see the sense in pragmatically supporting a break from an eternal Tory england but I would make it on that issue alone and not help foster base nationalism for that only creates malcontents in your own community who would in time have to be dealt with.

Riding piggy back on xenophobia is in no way better than guiding the phobe's away from the darkness, from within.

The existential problem we have is that many english people see voting tory as a matter of culture, they don't even think about it. Even to the extent that it works against themselves. The whole southern proletariat is dumbfounded and simply immune to political argument that favours their best interest. I had thought that this was a peculiarity of englishness, but the way places like PontyPool and Ebbw Vale voted for Brexit in complete ignorance set me straight on that point.

We need a new way to approach these issues, cut and leave Independence does nothing to address the fundemental problem of peoples voting stupidity and support for the wrong.options.



On a slightly tangential tack, given the cultural aspects of this thread, I'd like to ask the thinker's amongst you to persevere and watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqR6g4wpvH8

It touches upon certain truths.

With Great Respect To You All

Stalis.




I agree with all of that :thumbright:

Must say you have been particularly "nice" of late, are you starting to mellow or something ? ;)
:D :D

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Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:15 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Blindside wrote:



I agree with all of that :thumbright:

Must say you have been particularly "nice" of late, are you starting to mellow or something ? ;)
:D :D



I am in such a pondery trying to even think that one .. best take a rain check on it :D


Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:22 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Blindside wrote:
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
I can see the sense in pragmatically supporting a break from an eternal Tory england but I would make it on that issue alone and not help foster base nationalism for that only creates malcontents in your own community who would in time have to be dealt with.

Riding piggy back on xenophobia is in no way better than guiding the phobe's away from the darkness, from within.

The existential problem we have is that many english people see voting tory as a matter of culture, they don't even think about it. Even to the extent that it works against themselves. The whole southern proletariat is dumbfounded and simply immune to political argument that favours their best interest. I had thought that this was a peculiarity of englishness, but the way places like PontyPool and Ebbw Vale voted for Brexit in complete ignorance set me straight on that point.

We need a new way to approach these issues, cut and leave Independence does nothing to address the fundemental problem of peoples voting stupidity and support for the wrong.options.



On a slightly tangential tack, given the cultural aspects of this thread, I'd like to ask the thinker's amongst you to persevere and watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqR6g4wpvH8

It touches upon certain truths.

With Great Respect To You All

Stalis.




I agree with all of that :thumbright:

Must say you have been particularly "nice" of late, are you starting to mellow or something ? ;)
:D :D


Block, geographical Independence attention is essentially different from informed representation that addresses basic issues. Recognition of same/similar issues and common political force will progress fundamental change irrespective of micro 'Nationalism' ? Indeed, micro Nationalism(apologies for term I couldn't describe it otherwise.. limited vocabulary strikes again) could even hamper it?

It is a UK Govt despite some attempts to treat it differently.

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Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:35 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron wrote:

Jesus christ this lot is right out of the Plaid Cymru book on how to feel persecuted. You've never read anything from any Plaid Cymru "book". You're as ignorant about them as you are about everything else Welsh you have an opinion on.

Firstly yes I can use "our" because it was the culture that was wiped out, not the people. The Anglo Saxon and Norman cultures took over but the original inhabitants weren't wiped out. Genetic studies indicate otherwise. You're attempting to give the English a Celtic heritage. This is a tired old ploy used for nearly a 1000 years since the Normans' propaganda declared that they were the descendants of King Arthur.

No that's not my logic, it's YOUR logic as I've pointed out numerous times. All I'm doing is taking your own argument and applying YOUR criteria for a conquered people to England. This isn't my definition of a conquered people, it's YOURS. We are a conquered people, that is historical fact. My opinion is that we have the mentality of a conquered people and are treated as such. I have given current evidence to support my opinion. You have chosen not to engage in discussing that evidence. It has f*** a** to do with your opinion that the English are a conquered people. he fact that you still can't grasp this despite me telling you numerous times is staggering. Let me say it as clear as *fupping* possible (how many times have I had to say that?) I AM TAKING YOUR ARGUMENT AND APPLYING IT TO ENGLAND, THIS IS NOT WHAT I THINK CONSTITUTES A CONQUERED PEOPLE BUT WHAT YOU SAID MAKES A CONQUERED PEOPLE. FFS I really don't want to have to repeat that again.

blah blah blah again
Can be summarized as - I'm telling you again to get with the (our) programme

No it can be summed up as I think you as an individual are talking absolute crap and playing the same old card nationalists all round the world have played throughout the entirety of human history. Except of course the "British" who have never been, are not and never will be "nationalists". :roll: If you bothered to check you would see I actually said Wales can be independent, but if they decide to go that way they need to change the way their economy works and their attitude. ]You are here proposing ramping up the victim complex and scapegoating, precisely the thing I say Wales will need to dump if it is to prosper. The Irish are a great example, where the petty nationalism was dropped (between Ireland and Britain) relations flourished but where it was stoked and the victim complex maintained (N.Ireland) the country floundered. It seems you get your opinions of Ireland and the Irish from the same skip as you get those you have on Wales and the Welsh :shock: Raking up petty nationalism never ends well and i will definitely say that if Wales left Britain because of a sense of persecution and a desire to stick 2 fingers up at England, then that independent Wales would fail. It would never move on, forever blaming England for all its problems. Nobody would address those problems because it would be much easier to blame someone else. The country would spiral downwards. An independent Wales willing to take bold steps to assert its place in Europe and one that was not trying to scapegoat or get one over on its neighbour This gives away your mentality - the desire for an independent Wales cannot be taken at face value it is seen as being accompanied by a desire to harm England. This is the classic paranoia of the conqueror - the few who have little power. in this the Welsh are out to do harm to the many with a lot of power, the English. in the would be one that would flourish. You clearly support the former. You clearly have no desire to understand a different point of view to your own.


Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:15 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
You've never read anything from any Plaid Cymru "book". You're as ignorant about them as you are about everything else Welsh you have an opinion on.
Genetic studies indicate otherwise. You're attempting to give the English a Celtic heritage. This is a tired old ploy used for nearly a 1000 years since the Normans' propaganda declared that they were the descendants of King Arthur.

We are a conquered people, that is historical fact. My opinion is that we have the mentality of a conquered people and are treated as such. I have given current evidence to support my opinion. You have chosen not to engage in discussing that evidence. It has f*** a** to do with your opinion that the English are a conquered people.
Except of course the "British" who have never been, are not and never will be "nationalists".
It seems you get your opinions of Ireland and the Irish from the same skip as you get those you have on Wales and the Welsh
This gives away your mentality - the desire for an independent Wales cannot be taken at face value it is seen as being accompanied by a desire to harm England. This is the classic paranoia of the conqueror - the few who have little power. in this the Welsh are out to do harm to the many with a lot of power, the English.
You clearly have no desire to understand a different point of view to your own.


You know what really stand out here? Your complete failure to address any points and to just go "oh I bet you got your sources from somewhere I don't like, let me present absolutely no evidence from my vastly superior sources." Firstly if you knew anything you would know that more people of Celt genetics in England than in Wales, Scotland and Ireland combined. Care to explain that little inconvenient detail considering you just said genetic studies show the original population of England was completely wiped out by the invaders in a genocide. I'm actually not trying to give the English a Celtic heritage, we have it. Genetically we are descended from the pre-Anglo Saxon people too. Culturally however that is completely gone. Your desperation to deny this highlight your own nationalism, you cannot bear to think that the purest of Celt blood actually flows through the veins of the majority of English people too, much easier to think of us as a completely different race totally alien to these isles.

You don't think British nationalists have ever existed... Seriously how deluded are you? Look up UKIP, you may have heard of them in passing...

My opinions of the Irish from reading Irish history as my opinions of the Welsh from the same and both talking face to face with people from either nation. Your opinions are clearly borne out of a persecution complex and a desperate attempt to feel you are a poor, conquered people. If anything you are projecting your own screwed up perception onto the Welsh people as a whole, you want to portray the entire country as victimised as you have deluded yourself into thinking you are. I'm not for one second going to pretend Wales or the Welsh have it all fine under a British government but I'm not for one second going to accept it's because we are conquerors oppressing the conquered, that's a few centuries behind the times.

Once again your inability to read is staggering. I said YOUR desire for independence is from a desire to harm England and IF Wales goes for independence because people want to stick 2 fingers up at England, then it will be a failure. Notice the important qualifier words in this expressing this as ONE hypothetical reason for independence. I very clearly stated that independence for reasons other than wanting to get one over on England could succeed but independence based largely on wanting to screw England over would fail. However ONCE AGAIN you ignore what I say in favour of fabricating your own pathetic little strawman so you can feel persecuted and then knocking that down. I think you realise you can't argue on the merit of your points so fabricate the comments you want to respond to rather than the ones that are actually made. The frequency with which you claim I say literally the exact opposite of what I actually said is ridiculous. READ!

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Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:14 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
I think any debate on this subject needs to be based on all sides accepting the following points:

1 - All talk of blood, ethnicity and parentage should be banished as irrelevant at best and extremely problematic at worst.

Wales' claim to independence should never rest on whether or not our ancestry is different to England's or anywhere else, nor on migrations and invasions during the Dark Ages or any other historical period.

2 - History should only be invoked inasmuch as it helps to explain contemporary reality.

We should not be invoking grievances from a generation ago, let alone centuries ago, if their legacy is not continuing to be lived out today. There is a very wide consensus now that Tryweryn was a mistake and it is not reasonable to use it (much less the Welsh Not or Blue Books) as a stick with which to beat perceived English 'oppressors' in 2017. It's also not necessary when there are far more recent things to legitimately take issue with.

3 - The legitimacy of a culture is not determined by how much it has been oppressed compared to other cultures.

That the Tutsis or Palestinians or whichever non-state culture you like may have suffered genocides at the hands of their dominant states bears no effect on Wales and England.

4 - All peoples have the right to self determination.

Self-evident.


Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:36 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Figaro wrote:
I think any debate on this subject needs to be based on all sides accepting the following points:

1 - All talk of blood, ethnicity and parentage should be banished as irrelevant at best and extremely problematic at worst. From where we are today I agree with that and Welsh nationalism is overwhelmingly a civic nationalism rather than an ethnic one.

Wales' claim to independence should never rest on whether or not our ancestry is different to England's or anywhere else, nor on migrations and invasions during the Dark Ages or any other historical period. The genetic differences between people in Britain is a scientific fact however in the greater scheme of things the differences are very small and shouldn't be an argument that me must therefore separate. However that also means that the fact that are only slight differences shouldn't be an argument that we must therefore stick together.

2 - History should only be invoked inasmuch as it helps to explain contemporary reality. What's important is how a person identities themselves and the history they are "fed" contributes a lot to that identity. For various reasons many, probably most people who identify themselves as Welsh do so with reference to English history and an Anglocentric version of Welsh history. This reliance on and acceptance that we see our history as others interpret it is in stark contrast to how the Scots and Irish get to know their histories.

We should not be invoking grievances from a generation ago, let alone centuries ago, if their legacy is not continuing to be lived out today. There is a very wide consensus now that Tryweryn was a mistake and it is not reasonable to use it (much less the Welsh Not or Blue Books) as a stick with which to beat perceived English 'oppressors' in 2017. If anything Tryweryn is an example of how we refused to learn the lesson that the people of Wales are not in charge of the affairs Wales and it's really a stick to beat the docility of the Welsh rather than the forcefulness of the English. It's also not necessary when there are far more recent things to legitimately take issue with. Unfortunately these and future "recent things" will also most likely be met with general docility rather than a call for control. An expression of the conquered people mentality perhaps.

3 - The legitimacy of a culture is not determined by how much it has been oppressed compared to other cultures. I agree with that

That the Tutsis or Palestinians or whichever non-state culture you like may have suffered genocides at the hands of their dominant states bears no effect on Wales and England.

4 - All peoples have the right to self determination.
Quite right
Self-evident.


Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:10 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron wrote:

You know what really stand out here? Your complete failure to address any points and to just go "oh I bet you got your sources from somewhere I don't like, let me present absolutely no evidence from my vastly superior sources." Firstly if you knew anything you would know that more people of Celt genetics in England than in Wales, Scotland and Ireland combined. Care to explain that little inconvenient detail considering you just said genetic studies show the original population of England was completely wiped out by the invaders in a genocide. I'm actually not trying to give the English a Celtic heritage, we have it. Genetically we are descended from the pre-Anglo Saxon people too. Culturally however that is completely gone. Your desperation to deny this highlight your own nationalism, you cannot bear to think that the purest of Celt blood actually flows through the veins of the majority of English people too, much easier to think of us as a completely different race totally alien to these isles. I have no interest in a genetic basis for an independent Cymru. I have not said anything in our discussion to indicate that I have. You introduced this genetics business as part of your argument and my mistake was not to ignore it.

You don't think British nationalists have ever existed... Seriously how deluded are you? Look up UKIP, you may have heard of them in passing... You don't get sarcasm do you

My opinions of the Irish from reading Irish history as my opinions of the Welsh from the same and both talking face to face with people from either nation. Your opinions are clearly borne out of a persecution complex and a desperate attempt to feel you are a poor, conquered people. If anything you are projecting your own screwed up perception onto the Welsh people as a whole, you want to portray the entire country as victimised If you had the skills necessary to comprehend this argument you would have realized that it involves a criticism of the tendency of the Welsh to adopt the role of victim. Presumably because you are unable to get involved in such a discussion without getting it to focus on your bias you've interpreted this as an accusation that the English are victimizing the Welsh. you have deluded yourself into thinking you are. I'm not for one second going to pretend Wales or the Welsh have it all fine under a British government but I'm not for one second going to accept it's because we are conquerors oppressing the conquered, that's a few centuries behind the times.

Once again your inability to read is staggering. I said YOUR desire for independence is from a desire to harm England and IF Wales goes for independence because people want to stick 2 fingers up at England, then it will be a failure. Notice the important qualifier words in this expressing this as ONE hypothetical reason for independence. I very clearly stated that independence for reasons other than wanting to get one over on England could succeed but independence based largely on wanting to screw England over would fail. You chose to introduce the idea of "wanting to get one over on England" If you want to point to a strawman that is it.However ONCE AGAIN you ignore what I say in favour of fabricating your own pathetic little strawman so you can feel persecuted and then knocking that down. I think you realise you can't argue on the merit of your points so fabricate the comments you want to respond to rather than the ones that are actually made. The frequency with which you claim I say literally the exact opposite of what I actually said is ridiculous. READ! With hindsight after your first response I should have just told you to go back and re-read my first comment and think about.


Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:34 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:

I have no interest in a genetic basis for an independent Cymru. I have not said anything in our discussion to indicate that I have. You introduced this genetics business as part of your argument and my mistake was not to ignore it.
You don't get sarcasm do you
If you had the skills necessary to comprehend this argument you would have realized that it involves a criticism of the tendency of the Welsh to adopt the role of victim. Presumably because you are unable to get involved in such a discussion without getting it to focus on your bias you've interpreted this as an accusation that the English are victimizing the Welsh.You chose to introduce the idea of "wanting to get one over on England" If you want to point to a strawman that is it.
With hindsight after your first response I should have just told you to go back and re-read my first comment and think about.


Maybe not but once again you falsely accuse me of something and I'm really getting quite fed up with how far what you read differs from what is written, you seem to have some mental filter that prevents you processing stuff that is in any way awkward so instead you twist it. Let me summarise how we got to this:
Me - English fit your criteria of a conquered people more than the Welsh because our original culture is entirely gone and replaced with that of invaders
You - I cannot say "we" to apply to the English, it was Welsh culture that was removed.
Me - Modern day English are descendants of the English people whose culture was supplanted so I can say we. It wasn't Welsh culture, it was our culture and it was completely replaced.
You - Genetics show the people of Britain were entirely replaced as well as the culture, modern English have no claim to being descended from pre-anglo Saxon and thus no claim to the culture that existed prior to the invasions. (NOTE, here is YOU bringing genetic lineage into it)
Me - Genetics actually show England has a larger population with Celt ancestry than Ireland, Wales and Scotland combined.

So as we see, YOU were the one who brought up the genetics whilst I was talking about how the culture was completely destroyed and replaced in the same "group" of people.

I do get sarcasm, however it is incredibly difficult to spot when coming from someone who has spouted so much nonsense already.

For you to accuse me of lacking the skills to comprehend this argument when I have showed over 5 cases of you either claiming I said the exact opposite of what I did or accusing me of what you are guilty of yourself (like here), is laughable. The only Welsh who play the victim are those who choose to delude themselves with a victim complex, ie people like you. Although thank you for admitting the victim complex is borne out of delusion and not an actual reality. Why you want to happily associate yourself with such a delusion and wish to paint all your countrymen the same is weird to say the least.

You don't know what a straw man is do you? Let me educate you, a straw man is misrepresenting an argument in a much weaker form that you then knock down. This is then used to claim you have defeated the argument whilst you have actually just defeated an argument of your own construction that you set up to fail, hence offering as much resistance as a straw man. Presenting a hypothetical scenario for why some may wish to claim independence, and a scenario that I know to be true for some, is not a straw man argument at all. If you had paid attention you will see every time I've talked about the nationalists wishing to stick 2 fingers up to the English I have always balanced it with a 2nd scenario in which the Welsh choose independence for other reasons and have stated every time that the latter would be the path to success and the former the path to failure. The fact you have repeatedly ignored the 2nd half of that comment in your desperation to show bias is a straw man. You intentionally omit half the argument and then present one hypothetical scenario as what is being proposed as the whole. If you are going to try to poke holes, don't do it in such a blatant way that is very easily show to be false by anyone capable of reading previous comments. You either can't comprehend or are being intentionally deceitful in your approach.

With hindsight you should have picked a better fight and maybe done a bit of a course in basic logic and reasoning. Or maybe even better, simply drop the whole victim complex and try to look at the world in a more rational and positive way rather than looking at ways to make yourself the victim.

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Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:37 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron wrote:
Maybe not but once again you falsely accuse me of something and I'm really getting quite fed up with how far what you read differs from what is written, you seem to have some mental filter that prevents you processing stuff that is in any way awkward so instead you twist it. Let me summarise how we got to this:
Me - English fit your criteria of a conquered people more than the Welsh because our original culture is entirely gone and replaced with that of invaders
You - I cannot say "we" to apply to the English, it was Welsh culture that was removed.
Me - Modern day English are descendants of the English people whose culture was supplanted so I can say we. It wasn't Welsh culture, it was our culture and it was completely replaced.
You - Genetics show the people of Britain were entirely replaced as well as the culture, modern English have no claim to being descended from pre-anglo Saxon and thus no claim to the culture that existed prior to the invasions. (NOTE, here is YOU bringing genetic lineage into it)
Me - Genetics actually show England has a larger population with Celt ancestry than Ireland, Wales and Scotland combined.

So as we see, YOU were the one who brought up the genetics whilst I was talking about how the culture was completely destroyed and replaced in the same "group" of people.

I do get sarcasm, however it is incredibly difficult to spot when coming from someone who has spouted so much nonsense already.

For you to accuse me of lacking the skills to comprehend this argument when I have showed over 5 cases of you either claiming I said the exact opposite of what I did or accusing me of what you are guilty of yourself (like here), is laughable. The only Welsh who play the victim are those who choose to delude themselves with a victim complex, ie people like you. Although thank you for admitting the victim complex is borne out of delusion and not an actual reality. Why you want to happily associate yourself with such a delusion and wish to paint all your countrymen the same is weird to say the least.

You don't know what a straw man is do you? Let me educate you, a straw man is misrepresenting an argument in a much weaker form that you then knock down. This is then used to claim you have defeated the argument whilst you have actually just defeated an argument of your own construction that you set up to fail, hence offering as much resistance as a straw man. Presenting a hypothetical scenario for why some may wish to claim independence, and a scenario that I know to be true for some, is not a straw man argument at all. If you had paid attention you will see every time I've talked about the nationalists wishing to stick 2 fingers up to the English I have always balanced it with a 2nd scenario in which the Welsh choose independence for other reasons and have stated every time that the latter would be the path to success and the former the path to failure. The fact you have repeatedly ignored the 2nd half of that comment in your desperation to show bias is a straw man. You intentionally omit half the argument and then present one hypothetical scenario as what is being proposed as the whole. If you are going to try to poke holes, don't do it in such a blatant way that is very easily show to be false by anyone capable of reading previous comments. You either can't comprehend or are being intentionally deceitful in your approach.

With hindsight you should have picked a better fight and maybe done a bit of a course in basic logic and reasoning. Or maybe even better, simply drop the whole victim complex and try to look at the world in a more rational and positive way rather than looking at ways to make yourself the victim. You don't understand the argument.


Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:05 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Finishing in the same manner as you have all this argument, with a hypocritical statement.

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Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:35 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Blindside wrote:
Widest seam in Wales is 9ft i believe.


Not sure about the name in the Neath Valley but we used to call that the Lower Four Foot/Gellideg seam which was 2 separate seams with a band of shale/stone between them. It varied in height depending on the stone, in Brittania pit working under Pontllafraith it was, as you say about 9 foot but I have also worked it in Deep Navigation under Edwardsvill and instead of stone it had soft shale and the seam was anything up to 12 ft thick. They did, as a last resort in Britt, try working the Red Vien/ Rhos Las seam which was anything up to 14 foot high but a complete and utter death trap, a really scary place

So no 30 footers anywhere in S Wales

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Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:26 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Big And Dull wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Widest seam in Wales is 9ft i believe.


Not sure about the name in the Neath Valley but we used to call that the Lower Four Foot/Gellideg seam which was 2 separate seams with a band of shale/stone between them. It varied in height depending on the stone, in Brittania pit working under Pontllafraith it was, as you say about 9 foot but I have also worked it in Deep Navigation under Edwardsvill and instead of stone it had soft shale and the seam was anything up to 12 ft thick. They did, as a last resort in Britt, try working the Red Vien/ Rhos Las seam which was anything up to 14 foot high but a complete and utter death trap, a really scary place

So no 30 footers anywhere in S Wales



i will bow to your superior knowledge.... i realize a 9ft seam would fluctuate and sometimes the same seam had different names in different areas. I worked in the Rhondda number 2 seam which was just over a meter for the most part.

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Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:53 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Blindside wrote:
Big And Dull wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Widest seam in Wales is 9ft i believe.


Not sure about the name in the Neath Valley but we used to call that the Lower Four Foot/Gellideg seam which was 2 separate seams with a band of shale/stone between them. It varied in height depending on the stone, in Brittania pit working under Pontllafraith it was, as you say about 9 foot but I have also worked it in Deep Navigation under Edwardsvill and instead of stone it had soft shale and the seam was anything up to 12 ft thick. They did, as a last resort in Britt, try working the Red Vien/ Rhos Las seam which was anything up to 14 foot high but a complete and utter death trap, a really scary place

So no 30 footers anywhere in S Wales



i will bow to your superior knowledge.... i realize a 9ft seam would fluctuate and sometimes the same seam had different names in different areas. I worked in the Rhondda number 2 seam which was just over a meter for the most part.

Yeah worked that as well we used to call it the Yard Seam best quality "steam coal" in S Wales

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Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:12 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Debating the depth of coal seams, this has become very Welsh very quickly. That or you are dwarves :D

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Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:32 pm
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