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Do you support independence for Wales? 

Do you support independence for Wales?
Yes 42%  42%  [ 12 ]
No 39%  39%  [ 11 ]
Not immediately, but maybe in the more distant future 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 28

Do you support independence for Wales? 
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:

For god sake can you respond like normal people rather than replying in red in the quote? Yes I can and do but when a poster makes lots of points that need "debunking" addressing at least some of them one at a time, does I think, make the discussion easier to follow. them one by one rather than It' makes it a pain in the arse trying to respond.

Of course Anglo Saxon is a mix of foreign languages, THAT'S THE WHOLE BLOODY POINT! I don't think you know how to express your POINT. You stated that Anglo Saxon or as you labeled it "English" was here "originally". It wasn't, Anglo Saxon is by your definition as foreign to Britain as the Norman influenced Middle English that developed from it. the Seriously how can you be this dense? Let me put it to you in the simplest possible terms, pretty much EVERY country on the planet has been invaded and had their culture and language influenced or totally supplanted by another but there comes a point where you can't say they are a conquered people any more because the conquering culture simply becomes their culture. Just something to consider since you have a blind spot on this. By your logic all the people of the USA are as conquered as one another whether their are Native Americans from Dakota or WASPs (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) from New England. Note that the forefathers of many of those WASPs spoke German and Dutch and had German and Dutch cultures which they have subsequently lost You are convinced the Welsh are a conquered people for something that happened 800 years ago! At the moment what little self government Wales has is under threat due to the feared claw back of powers by Westminster after Brexit. The effects of something that happened 800 years ago are very much still in play. That culture and various aspects are long gone just like they are long gone from England! The same people and culture that invaded you invaded England first. However they adopted much of what was "English". The most obvious was the language which went on to develope from Anglo Saxon rather than being replaced with French. You seem to think that the second they arrived in what is now England, they suddenly stopped being conquerors. So why do you say that 200 years on from being conquered, England isn't a conquered nation but 800 years on from being conquered Wales is? Also the fact you think I'm genuinely arguing that I think England is a conquered people You avoid answering the question - Who's the boss of the English? rather than using it to highlight the absurdity of your claim shows it is you who fails to grasp what is being said.

Your complete inability to have any consistency in what you say is laughable. Oh moving the goal posts, who is the boss of the Yorkshire people? Yorkshire is part of England and from Alfred the Great's time has always seen itself that way. Your confusing a region with a nation. Oh it's not the Yorkshire people! Oppressed! Break a large entity down into smaller entities and of course no smaller entity The entity under discussion is the nation of Cymru not an English county.will have full control. The fact you treat the English as some homogeneous block The English identify themselves as a single block there is nowhere in England where the people of a county insist they are not English. Cornwall of course not being a part of England anywayshows how little you understand about England. Britain is made up of many people with many cultures and you think you are oppressed because Wales doesn't control the entire legislative process of Britain!? Well what about if Wales splits off and then the North complain that the South controls everything and demand independence? It wouldn't you know sweet fa about Cymru. What if they point to 1000 years ago where Wales was split into different areas, each with their own kings and laws. Oh let me guess, you'd suddenly draw an arbitrary boundary saying why that doesn't apply. King Offa defined the territory of Wales with a physical boundary as he knew the people beyond it were not Anglo Saxons. Of course there were different kingdoms and fighting between them here as there were in England and pretty much everywhere else in Europe. Your entire 'argument' is little more than special pleading and moving the posts when it doesn't suit you.

Simple fact is the Welsh are not a conquered people. 800 years ago yes, now? No. The mentality of many in Wales fits the mentality of conquered peoples across the world. The mentality of the English does not. If for arguments sake we accept your - the English people were conquered also - then they've got over it. So much so that there was an English Empire, which Wales was a possession of (however it was defined as being part of England)before the rebrand to British. If you want to try to build for the future by digging up centuries old grievances then you will fail before you even start. The grievances are current for example the Labour government of Wales support erecting a large sculpture of an Iron Ring at Fflint castle. As you probably haven't a clue what the Iron Ring represents it's the Edwardian castles in North Wales that were build by the Normans and their Anglo Saxon little helpers to conquer and subdue the Welsh. This is an example of a people revealing their mentality of the conquered by celebrating the deeds of those that conquered them.


No I didn't state Anglo Saxon was original, that was literally the entire *fupping* point! Seriously... Here is one of the things I wrote "Our entire culture was wiped out and replaced with foreign cultures (those of the Romans, Germanic people and Normans". If you can't even read then don't bother responding. I've already put it in simplest terms but you obviously still can't understand it so let's try again. The old British culture that existing in the pre-roman times in what is now England was completely removed by invading foreign cultures, first the romans then the Germanic people and the Normans. Using your definition of a conquered people as those who have been forced to adopt a foreign culture, England is more a conquered nation than Wales because NONE of the original culture survived. Also no, your way of answering is not clearer at all. Everyone else manages so why can't you?

No not by my logic you *fupping* ignoramus. How many times have I stated I'm using YOUR definition of a conquered people and highlighting how ridiculous it is. By YOUR definition the people of the USA are a conquered people. My entire point is showing how ridiculous your original claim is. That's now 2 claims you have got completely wrong from me.

You think redistribution of power within a country is enough to call them conquered? Christ, that applies to every bloody nation on the planet!

Right it developed from Anglo Saxon, remind me where the Anglo Saxons invaders or not!? *fupping* hell how can you be this stupid?

I'm not avoiding any questions although I see your hypocrisy is alive and kicking. The British government are the boss of the English, same as for everyone else. Who is the boss of the people of Yorkshire? Is Yorkshire conquered and oppressed? Should Yorkshire declare independence?

And for large parts of the country people identify themselves as British, therefore we can treat Britain as a homogeneous block. That is literally what you are claiming.

Oh it wouldn't? Funny because not long before the time of your grievance Wales WAS split that way. Oh I forgot, you are entirely selective in what you do and don't want to take into account and the concept of consistency is completely alien to you.

So you use the arbitrary boundary drawn by the offspring of a conqueror as defining the Welsh, the irony clearly is lost on you.

No the mentality of the Welsh does not fit a conquered people and quite frankly you would be insulting people who actually live in conquered nations by comparing your petty little whinging to the actual suffering conquered people must deal with. It seems you have a persecution complex using events 800 years ago to justify getting wound up about anything and everything you can find right now. Wales is not a conquered nation, it is an economically stagnant nation and that is what is being shown. Look through history and Wales has more in common with times of economic downturn than with conquest. Want to disagree? Please go to the Gaza strip and tell them how the Welsh are united with them in their conquered state and how you can fully sympathise with what it is like to be a conquered people. Not having enough money to go to a tanning salon one weekend...

For the billionth time, the Welsh are NOT a conquered people and if Welsh people have the same mentality as you of raking up centuries old grievances then you are *fupped* if you ever become independent. You will actually have to do something rather than sitting around whinging.

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Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:24 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
I must say that this is the most intriguing thread ever. I have sympathy with every post made and my mind and judgement are like a judge facing professional's of the first order.

There are many new nuances here never seen before discussed in Wales at least.

I am moved to hear more.

:-)


Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:56 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Wales can be an independent nation if it desires. There are other countries around the world with similar/smaller populations and/or size that have low levels of debt, stable economies and rely on the services sector for the majority of its GDP.

Whether Wales will ever become independent is another matter entirely. I definitely can't see it happening in my lifetime. One thing I know for certain in the UK is that the Government, media and press are experts in denying a serious and informative debate and thereby obfuscates any meaningful decisions or conclusions to be derived.


Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron wrote:
No I didn't state Anglo Saxon was original, that was literally the entire *fupping* point! Seriously... Here is one of the things I wrote "Our entire culture was wiped out and replaced with foreign cultures (those of the Romans, Germanic people and Normans". If you are Welsh it's valid to use "Our" in that context. However if you are English it is not. If you can't even read then don't bother responding. I've already put it in simplest terms but you obviously still can't understand it so let's try again. The old British culture that existing in the pre-roman times in what is now England was completely removed by invading foreign cultures, first the romans then the Germanic people these are the ones you're calling English yes and the Normans. Using your definition of a conquered people as those who have been forced to adopt a foreign culture, England is more a conquered nation than Wales because NONE of the original culture survived. Because it was wiped out by the Anglo Saxon people(English) before the Normans arrived. Your logic states that because the "English" wiped out "Welsh" culture in England before the Normans got to England it makes the "English" a more conquered people. :roll: Also no, your way of answering is not clearer at all. Everyone else manages so why can't you?

No not by my logic you *fupping* ignoramus. How many times have I stated I'm using YOUR definition of a conquered people and highlighting how ridiculous it is. By YOUR definition the people of the USA are a conquered people. No my comment was based entirely on your hypothesis. if you now say that it wasn't your view perhaps you should reconsider and come back with exactly what it is that you think My entire point is showing how ridiculous your original claim is. That's now 2 claims you have got completely wrong from me.

You think redistribution of power within a country is enough to call them conquered? Christ, that applies to every bloody nation on the planet! You don't get it that's not a surprise and neither is your attitude of choosing to argue the point rather than learn. I've given you an example of the mentality of the conquered - the proposed Iron Ring sculpture. If you are genuinely interested you will have looked up and read about the issue. I don't know if you have but you have ignored responding to it it in your latest contribution. If you haven't read up on it then really the conclusion is that you have no real interest in learning about this mentality issue and are just here to argue your opinion which is confined to the narrow Anglocentic view of who and what the British are and should be.

blah blah blah
Which can be summed up as - all you Welsh lot should shut up and get with the(our) programme
.


Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:30 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
daicymraeg wrote:
Wales can be an independent nation if it desires. There are other countries around the world with similar/smaller populations and/or size that have low levels of debt, stable economies and rely on the services sector for the majority of its GDP.

Whether Wales will ever become independent is another matter entirely. I definitely can't see it happening in my lifetime. One thing I know for certain in the UK is that the Government, media and press are experts in denying a serious and informative debate and thereby obfuscates any meaningful decisions or conclusions to be derived.



In my lifetime either but it is eminently possible given the other realities in the world today.

You thoroughly hit the debate square on the head with correct analysis about obfuscation and conclusions: such said 'nonsense' predicates the whole economic 'Wales cannot support itself' argument. It is an argument born of english establishment propaganda and bought by natural born Welshmen wholesale.

Perhaps for Wales to be Independent Welsh folk must first clean their eyes and minds of english propaganda?


Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:51 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
and detach themselves from reality

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Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:55 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Fids the Blindside wrote:
and detach themselves from reality



Are we really in The Matrix? Is not reality what you see with open eyes and lungs full of fresh air, a heart beating in excitement for the future?

Is not the first step to realise ones entrapment?

Is not the second to perceive a different way?

Is not the third to begin to think that you can make it happen?

Is not forth not to believe in false gods?

Is not the fifth to not trust false friends?

Is not the sixth to make up one's own mind?

Is not the seventh to be true to one's self and be Brave?


... the rest is shyte and politics.


Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:26 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
eog wrote:
If you are Welsh it's valid to use "Our" in that context. However if you are English it is not.
Because it was wiped out by the Anglo Saxon people(English) before the Normans arrived. Your logic states that because the "English" wiped out "Welsh" culture in England before the Normans got to England it makes the "English" a more conquered people.
No my comment was based entirely on your hypothesis. if you now say that it wasn't your view perhaps you should reconsider and come back with exactly what it is that you think
You don't get it that's not a surprise and neither is your attitude of choosing to argue the point rather than learn. I've given you an example of the mentality of the conquered - the proposed Iron Ring sculpture. If you are genuinely interested you will have looked up and read about the issue. I don't know if you have but you have ignored responding to it it in your latest contribution. If you haven't read up on it then really the conclusion is that you have no real interest in learning about this mentality issue and are just here to argue your opinion which is confined to the narrow Anglocentic view of who and what the British are and should be.

Which can be summed up as - all you Welsh lot should shut up and get with the(our) programme
.
[/quote]

Jesus christ this lot is right out of the Plaid Cymru book on how to feel persecuted.

Firstly yes I can use "our" because it was the culture that was wiped out, not the people. The Anglo Saxon and Norman cultures took over but the original inhabitants weren't wiped out.

No that's not my logic, it's YOUR logic as I've pointed out numerous times. All I'm doing is taking your own argument and applying YOUR criteria for a conquered people to England. This isn't my definition of a conquered people, it's YOURS. The fact that you still can't grasp this despite me telling you numerous times is staggering. Let me say it as clear as *fupping* possible (how many times have I had to say that?) I AM TAKING YOUR ARGUMENT AND APPLYING IT TO ENGLAND, THIS IS NOT WHAT I THINK CONSTITUTES A CONQUERED PEOPLE BUT WHAT YOU SAID MAKES A CONQUERED PEOPLE. FFS I really don't want to have to repeat that again.

Your hypothesis

Your hypocrisy is staggering, you make a point and then blank it when it's shown to be complete bull. You've not given an example of the conquered. I just told you, go to the people of Gaza and tell them how an iron ring shows you are a conquered people on par with them, they would laugh in your face if they had the will to still do that. You are not a bloody conquered people, if you were conquered you would *fupping* know about it. What you are is a region in economic decline and individuals like you want to make out you are some poor conquered people. It's the Welsh equivalent of Braveheart syndrome, drastically negatively portraying your treatment in the world to the point of claiming tyranny and then using that to justify petty nationalism even though your initial assertions are so detached from reality it is laughable. The only one with a narrow view is you, you set out with an agenda to show Wales are a poor, oppressed people by English tyranny and then refuse to accept anything that will tell you otherwise. You've shut yourself off to reason so much you have now managed to delude yourself into thinking you are a conquered people. Seriously, look at yourself and ask yourself what echo chamber of Welsh nationalism you have been in to produce your current views.

No it can be summed up as I think you as an individual are talking absolute crap and playing the same old card nationalists all round the world have played throughout the entirety of human history. If you bothered to check you would see I actually said Wales can be independent, but if they decide to go that way they need to change the way their economy works and their attitude. You are here proposing ramping up the victim complex and scapegoating, precisely the thing I say Wales will need to dump if it is to prosper. The Irish are a great example, where the petty nationalism was dropped (between Ireland and Britain) relations flourished but where it was stoked and the victim complex maintained (N.Ireland) the country floundered. Raking up petty nationalism never ends well and i will definitely say that if Wales left Britain because of a sense of persecution and a desire to stick 2 fingers up at England, then that independent Wales would fail. It would never move on, forever blaming England for all its problems. Nobody would address those problems because it would be much easier to blame someone else. The country would spiral downwards. An independent Wales willing to take bold steps to assert its place in Europe and one that was not trying to scapegoat or get one over on its neighbour would be one that would flourish. You clearly support the former.

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Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Troron?

You are losing the plot.

Frustration is a pain but insults just lose joe average trying to listen.

You are progressing a line never before been explained here.

Don't lose it by being yellow carded.


Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:33 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Wales does have an. advantage over England, ...the Church is disestablished, ...maybe excomunicate the monarchy and establish a Replublic could be the next goal?

I jest because I cannot see any route or likelihood whereby Wales could achieve independence.

They may be able to increase some powers reserved but extricating themselves from the rump of England which they currently are is pie in the sky in my opinion. Increased Regionalism in England cue Manchester etc will just place Wales alongside.

I've flirted with Plaid and been a member of Urdd in my younger days but the reality of circumstance has replaced idealism with cynicism. Nothing in the above stream has yet convinced me otherwise.

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Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:09 pm
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Troron?

You are losing the plot.

Frustration is a pain but insults just lose joe average trying to listen.

You are progressing a line never before been explained here.

Don't lose it by being yellow carded.


Well of course I'm going to get annoyed when I repeatedly state one thing only to get a response claiming I'm literally saying the exact opposite and then on top of that saying I'm the one who isn't bothering to read the comments correctly. If Eog would actually bother to approach this properly and not intentionally say I'm claiming the exact opposite of what I actually am then maybe some expletives won't be needed. I've had some arguments with Trump supporters and this same determination to completely ignore what is actually said in favour of hearing a strawman you can knock down is infuriating and quite frankly I hate such intellectual dishonesty.

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Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:57 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
Bouch wrote:
Severn Barrage - refused by Westminster despite massive private money being secured.

Electrification of the railway system to Swansea - refused by Westminster.

Swansea Lagoon - Up in the air, for now.


Wales is flat broke and depending on handouts.

All those who think Independence is necessary now need to find a way to generate 200 new small businesses and the Senedd need to produce 50 to 100 new substantial foreign investments in the next 5 years.

Face it, Wales is shockingly poor and this Conservative government will keep it that way.


Talking of the Swansea Lagoon :-

Quote:
A spokesman for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy said: "The government is considering the recommendations of the Hendry Review and taking the time needed to determine what is in the best interests of UK energy consumers and taxpayers in the long term.

"We will publish our response in due course."


Hendry Review (not Snooker) - https://hendryreview.wordpress.com/


Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:18 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
One aspect not really mentioned accurately yet is that of the ancestors of the current population of england. We all know many have Welsh, Scottish and Irish 'blood' in their veins from both recent and distant times. That is not the only British blood in their veins from long ago. They have the blood of the people who used to live in the areas now known collectively as england even if they were of different tribes. How is this so? It is because genocide and cleansing happened only once in the 'Sussex area', in all other areas the local people remained although under different 'political' control. Over the centuries they adopted new cultures and new languages eventually melding into one, that of the current day english. The fact remains however that many could well trace their ancestry back to the same roots of Britishness as we in Wales can.


Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:18 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Fids the Blindside wrote:
and detach themselves from reality



Are we really in The Matrix? Is not reality what you see with open eyes and lungs full of fresh air, a heart beating in excitement for the future?

Is not the first step to realise ones entrapment?

Is not the second to perceive a different way?

Is not the third to begin to think that you can make it happen?

Is not forth not to believe in false gods?

Is not the fifth to not trust false friends?

Is not the sixth to make up one's own mind?

Is not the seventh to be true to one's self and be Brave?


... the rest is shyte and politics.




“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.” how many people even question their life and its purpose. We worship at the feet of possessions and embrace debt, we admire those who work the hardest, particularly if that work is poorly rewarded. Marx believed that nationalism was an ideology that set worker against worker, although Marx failed to provide the answers he was pretty good at understanding the tools of entrapment. The only draw that patriotism or nationalism as for myself would be to break away from a political and economic system/ideology that I detest. If the reality was that Conservatives were unassailable then patriotism would be the tool for my aspirations but not the motivation for it.

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Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:33 am
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Post Re: Do you support independence for Wales?
I can see the sense in pragmatically supporting a break from an eternal Tory england but I would make it on that issue alone and not help foster base nationalism for that only creates malcontents in your own community who would in time have to be dealt with.

Riding piggy back on xenophobia is in no way better than guiding the phobe's away from the darkness, from within.

The existential problem we have is that many english people see voting tory as a matter of culture, they don't even think about it. Even to the extent that it works against themselves. The whole southern proletariat is dumbfounded and simply immune to political argument that favours their best interest. I had thought that this was a peculiarity of englishness, but the way places like PontyPool and Ebbw Vale voted for Brexit in complete ignorance set me straight on that point.

We need a new way to approach these issues, cut and leave Independence does nothing to address the fundemental problem of peoples voting stupidity and support for the wrong.options.



On a slightly tangential tack, given the cultural aspects of this thread, I'd like to ask the thinker's amongst you to persevere and watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqR6g4wpvH8

It touches upon certain truths.

With Great Respect To You All

Stalis.


Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:24 am
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