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Im beginning to dislike Women ? 
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
trampie wrote:
I hear you Blindside, there is a lot of talk in bar rooms across the land about these women they are referred to as 'wimmin' by the way, it's a description of upwardly mobile, middle to upper class, well paid females that use their gender and sight descrimination to get on, they are to be feared, they are a sisterhood just like the masons used to be, they look out for and promote each other and some say they hate men .

Remember the term 'wimmin' Blindside, beware the wimmin in powerful positions in Plaid and Labour, in that consultancy firm that advises politicians, have you heard of McEvoy and Sargeant ? they are in the establishment like the Beeb, they are so powerful and have so many connections that if you cross them you are done for.

It's nothing to do with equality at that high level of society it's to do with self interest, ego, promotion, power.

I've always championed women's rights and equality but beware of the group who have been christened as the ,'wimmin' they ain't fighting for women's rights in general they are fighting for themselves.


Don't fret.
If it's any consolation for the angst you and others are feeling now after this a bit of turmoil things will quieten down and society will carry on as normal. A new different normal.
Men can cope with new normals. They did in the aftermath of the Womens Lib movement of the 60s/70s and the Suffragette movement. teens/20s.
Many men felt threatened and angry by the principle of equal pay (for the SAME job) and protests in the 60s and votes for women in the 20s.
You'll get over it or at least those that can't will be a minority that only gets smaller.


Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:43 am
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
I have no issue with equal pay for the same job , in fact that is the only fair way to go, but when a women wants the same pay as a tradesman ie electrician , for doing a similar job , driving a van with parts to various sites , and her union back her up ,

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Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:48 am
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
jimcardiff wrote:
I have no issue with equal pay for the same job , in fact that is the only fair way to go, but when a women wants the same pay as a tradesman ie electrician , for doing a similar job , driving a van with parts to various sites , and her union back her up ,



:) How is that a similar job, delivering parts to being a tradesman. I bet that woman wouldnt even be allowed to have a union with many employers.

The reason i started the thread was not that men are better than women or that women are wrong to want more, it is because it is a distraction from the real issues, which your post highlights. Its like blaming immigrants for low wages, the issue is the low wages, not the immigrants. Its what society does to safeguard the establishment.

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Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:56 am
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
Blindside wrote:

:) I dont really have a place in society, Your views and that you articulate them alone make you part of society. im retired, fairly fit (54) not looking for a job and not on any form of benefit. I'm not sure i even show up as a statistic :D I have a place in my community, but not really my society. If you're here you come out (of your community)) I've worked in coal mining and with women and under women in secure accommodation. I have no issue with women, it is not something a think about, I accept the equality as natural. My impression from what you've posted is that you accept equality as long as it's on terms you are OK with. Changes in society happen when the terms change. It's inevitable that not everyone likes the new terms.
I disagree totally with your premise that "change" is continually happening, well progressive change anyway. There is far to little change far too little evolution of universal rights and opportunities. As inequality grows we discuss one form of inequality to mask the real issues that divide and threaten us (women and men). Children are going to school hungry and a relatively rich middle-class woman on a couple of hundred thousand pounds a year is crying because a man earns more than her. Excuse me if i dont pace around the house in indignation. There's nothing in my posts that indicate I think differently It may be wrong, but its like pulling the dog into the boat and leaving the child to drown.


I'm assuming that we both want women doing work at the low/lower end of the pay scale to be paid more so that they get the same as men doing the equivalent work.

We seem to differ in that I don't care if this means that high earning middle class women get a pay increase to match their male colleagues and you do. If you're going to point out that people are being distracted from addressing the big issue by a" small" issue then I'll point out that you are being distracted fromaddressing a "small" issue by the attention given to a small group of women whose attitudes p1ss you off.
Underpayment of low paid women is one of the real issues that divides and threaten us (women and men) and there are children that are going to school hungry because of it.
It is a


Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:21 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
jimcardiff wrote:
I have no issue with equal pay for the same job , in fact that is the only fair way to go, but when a women wants the same pay as a tradesman ie electrician , for doing a similar job , driving a van with parts to various sites , and her union back her up ,


How can you have read through this thread and still think this is a "same job" issue. :roll:


Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:23 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
eog wrote:
Blindside wrote:

:) I dont really have a place in society, Your views and that you articulate them alone make you part of society. im retired, fairly fit (54) not looking for a job and not on any form of benefit. I'm not sure i even show up as a statistic :D I have a place in my community, but not really my society. If you're here you come out (of your community)) I've worked in coal mining and with women and under women in secure accommodation. I have no issue with women, it is not something a think about, I accept the equality as natural. My impression from what you've posted is that you accept equality as long as it's on terms you are OK with. Changes in society happen when the terms change. It's inevitable that not everyone likes the new terms.
I disagree totally with your premise that "change" is continually happening, well progressive change anyway. There is far to little change far too little evolution of universal rights and opportunities. As inequality grows we discuss one form of inequality to mask the real issues that divide and threaten us (women and men). Children are going to school hungry and a relatively rich middle-class woman on a couple of hundred thousand pounds a year is crying because a man earns more than her. Excuse me if i dont pace around the house in indignation. There's nothing in my posts that indicate I think differently It may be wrong, but its like pulling the dog into the boat and leaving the child to drown.


I'm assuming that we both want women doing work at the low/lower end of the pay scale to be paid more so that they get the same as men doing the equivalent work.

We seem to differ in that I don't care if this means that high earning middle class women get a pay increase to match their male colleagues and you do. If you're going to point out that people are being distracted from addressing the big issue by a" small" issue then I'll point out that you are being distracted fromaddressing a "small" issue by the attention given to a small group of women whose attitudes p1ss you off.
Underpayment of low paid women is one of the real issues that divides and threaten us (women and men) and there are children that are going to school hungry because of it.
It is a


Yes i do want women getting more at the lower end of the pay scale. What is happening to women in particular in care homes and those involved "traditional domestic task" is wrong. Men do these jobs as well, but it is predominately women. So is the issue the pay for the job or the fact the fact it they are done by women, "is it because i is black" kind of thing. Women are being exploited for profit, but if we want true equality we must view each other as people. Underpayment of men and women in my view is the issue that divides society into those that have opportunities and those that dont. What divides those who are badly treated should not be their gender and they should fight together and not apart.

As for what i said about my role in society then your correct, i was taking the piss out of myself a bit.I hope it is clear that i am not sexist. I accept equality full stop and fail to see where i have not shown that.

I don't believe in Women-only shortlists because it is discrimination, that does not make me anti-woman though, does it? Except for the title of my thread, which was meant to indicate that i dislike the fact that Women use gender to the extent they do in certain circumstances to address matters that are cross gender.

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Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
eog wrote:
eborr wrote:
eborr wrote:
The way to shut them up is to remind them that the life chances of a young man growing up in poverty are far, far worse than a young girl growing up in a middle class family. That hits all the buttons


Something which folks dont want accept, and I dont like raising it because it makes me sound national front UKIP, but the lowest attainers at 16 are young white men from poor urban backgrounds


But that's only relevant to the idea that women who grow up in middle class families are better off than men who grow up in poverty stricken families. Everyone agrees that that's the case.

As you say young white men from poor urban backgrounds are likely to be even lower attainers than young white women from poor urban backgrounds. However if they gain employment they're likely to get higher pay than those women receive for doing equivalent jobs.


Few people will deny that white working class men get a bad deal too. There is however no reason why one more than one issue can't be looked at at the same time.
Equality can apply in many areas whether it is based on race, class or gender. Looking at gender equality doesn't have to detract from class equality unless you let it.

The problem with dealing with class based equality in the work places is that it is more complicated to resolve than gender.

There are loads of reasons why class problems exist and loads of measures by all parties have been put in place to resolve it. E.g. arguing for a more progressive tax system etc may be the answer but it requires a lot of work and even then the results may take decades to show improvements.

Female vs male equality in a job of equal difficulty is a much simpler problem to solve. If men and women are doing the same job at the same quality, there is no reason why a man should be paid more. I would suspect that no one on here disagrees with that? It is likely that a man and woman applying for the same job are from the same sort of background, the only difference is gender. This is the crucial point.

On the other hand, if you had two applicants applying for a professional job, one a candidate from a good school, with a degree from a top university vs an applicant from a rubbish school with a poor degree from a poor university or even no degree. Who do you pick?

How can you realistically make a case for the second person being the better candidate? Sure, you might make a valid argument that the second person has more potential, and has struggled more but this would require a huge understanding of his background etc. that you realistically couldn't do in an interview. Certainly not a judgement you can make when you get hundreds of apllications for only a few jobs.

This problem applies if you are looking at race or class. Both have a baggage of socio economic factors that are way too complicated for an interviewer to understand.

Qualifications are a coarse way of assessing the worth of a candidate, they also have a strong link to background. But in the above example, they are the fairest means of assessing someone.

The arguments on here seems to be that the jobs being reviewed are of different difficulty and therefore are difficult to compare. This may be the case but should not detract from the central argument here about equality. The difference in jobs is a distraction.


Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:01 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
eog wrote:
eborr wrote:
eborr wrote:
The way to shut them up is to remind them that the life chances of a young man growing up in poverty are far, far worse than a young girl growing up in a middle class family. That hits all the buttons


Something which folks dont want accept, and I dont like raising it because it makes me sound national front UKIP, but the lowest attainers at 16 are young white men from poor urban backgrounds


But that's only relevant to the idea that women who grow up in middle class families are better off than men who grow up in poverty stricken families. Everyone agrees that that's the case.

As you say young white men from poor urban backgrounds are likely to be even lower attainers than young white women from poor urban backgrounds. However if they gain employment they're likely to get higher pay than those women receive for doing equivalent jobs.


Few people will deny that white working class men get a bad deal too. There is however no reason why one more than one issue can't be looked at at the same time.
Equality can apply in many areas whether it is based on race, class or gender. Looking at gender equality doesn't have to detract from class equality unless you let it.

The problem with dealing with class based equality in the work places is that it is more complicated to resolve than gender.

There are loads of reasons why class problems exist and loads of measures by all parties have been put in place to resolve it. E.g. arguing for a more progressive tax system etc may be the answer but it requires a lot of work and even then the results may take decades to show improvements.

Female vs male equality in a job of equal difficulty is a much simpler problem to solve. If men and women are doing the same job at the same quality, there is no reason why a man should be paid more. I would suspect that no one on here disagrees with that? It is likely that a man and woman applying for the same job are from the same sort of background, the only difference is gender. This is the crucial point.

On the other hand, if you had two applicants applying for a professional job, one a candidate from a good school, with a degree from a top university vs an applicant from a rubbish school with a poor degree from a poor university or even no degree. Who do you pick?

How can you realistically make a case for the second person being the better candidate? Sure, you might make a valid argument that the second person has more potential, and has struggled more but this would require a huge understanding of his background etc. that you realistically couldn't do in an interview. Certainly not a judgement you can make when you get hundreds of apllications for only a few jobs.

This problem applies if you are looking at race or class. Both have a baggage of socio economic factors that are way too complicated for an interviewer to understand.

Qualifications are a coarse way of assessing the worth of a candidate, they also have a strong link to background. But in the above example, they are the fairest means of assessing someone.

The arguments on here seems to be that the jobs being reviewed are of different difficulty and therefore are difficult to compare. This may be the case but should not detract from the central argument here about equality. The difference in jobs is a distraction.


Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:02 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
Hubris.

The professor bit was not valid .. unless you mean an 'American professor' which means 'teacher' in the UK.


Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
I personally was in the 'd' stream in school and have many scares from fighting my way out.

When I was in 3B the teacher refused the class to go on a trip to brecon beacons if I was allowed to go.

So I spent the day learning how to make milk stinks in 3D ..a wonderful day :-)

When I was in 4B the headmaster said 'let the b stream take the exam to' .... and so I took the 11 plus.

Mr Evans of Pen Y Bryn was a genius.

Anyway, that was a long time ago and it seems we are still fighting the same bias.


Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:48 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
The issue thats been alleged is that lower paid roles are the roles often fulfilled by women, not that women are being paid less than men for doing the same job. This has been deliberately misinterpreted by the media to infer women are in general underpaid and are being exploited.

Its a contrived shitstorm just to create an issue which allows do gooding politicians to take the moral highground to score brownie points, further their careers and have a nice job. Cant trust anyone can you?

Its probably true to say that till jobs pay less than warehouse work. Its got nothing to do with gender, its simple economics. Lots of people can work behind a till, many cant work in a warehouse. The work in a warehouse is physical, hard, unpleasant and soul destroying. Working on a till is just soul destroying hence it pays a bit less.

The issue here isnt about men and women. Its about BIG companies who profile BILLIONS paying people shit wages which they cant live on. That includes warehouse workers.

All these blue collar wages are too low, not just the shop floor staff. But rather than face an issue lets all start a battle of the sexes. Divide and conquer.

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Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:01 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
eog wrote:
jimcardiff wrote:
I have no issue with equal pay for the same job , in fact that is the only fair way to go, but when a women wants the same pay as a tradesman ie electrician , for doing a similar job , driving a van with parts to various sites , and her union back her up ,


How can you have read through this thread and still think this is a "same job" issue. :roll:

That was what she was claiming , not me just her and her Union , the claim was because she had a qualification , driving licence, and some of the Sparks could not drive.

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Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:29 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Hubris.

The professor bit was not valid .. unless you mean an 'American professor' which means 'teacher' in the UK.


Not sure if you are referring to my post but I think you misread 'professional'?

Edit, Professor and in the UK is usually an experienced and bloody good Post doc (PhD) person. This is similar in the USA, but they tend to get their Professorships a lot earlier than in the UK.


Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:47 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
The point I'm making is that there is every reason to suspect that on average a richer person will get better qualifications. Qualifications are probably the single biggest determinant on getting a well paid job. They also strongly link to how well off your family is. This isn't fair, but what can an employer do? If the job requires high levels of qualifications, of course they are going to chose an applicant (generally speaking) with more qualifications. I repeat, this isn't fair, but how can there be any practical way of working out potential and how the breaks that the rich person had made a difference and how the poor person was held back?

To repeat, a male and a female apply for a job. If they have the same level of qualification, went to the same school, from the same area etc. It is possible that they had the same breaks. This is why I think it is probably easier to deal with discrimination in the workplace between men and women (on pay issues alone). There is probably less of a backstory to work through between men and women arriving at a job interview.


Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:02 pm
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Post Re: Im beginning to dislike Women ?
Cymru am byth wrote:
The point I'm making is that there is every reason to suspect that on average a richer person will get better qualifications. Qualifications are probably the single biggest determinant on getting a well paid job. They also strongly link to how well off your family is. This isn't fair, but what can an employer do? If the job requires high levels of qualifications, of course they are going to chose an applicant (generally speaking) with more qualifications. I repeat, this isn't fair, but how can there be any practical way of working out potential and how the breaks that the rich person had made a difference and how the poor person was held back?

To repeat, a male and a female apply for a job. If they have the same level of qualification, went to the same school, from the same area etc. It is possible that they had the same breaks. This is why I think it is probably easier to deal with discrimination in the workplace between men and women (on pay issues alone). There is probably less of a backstory to work through between men and women arriving at a job interview.


Salary is commensurate to experience. I have never ever seen anyone get paid a few grand more cos they got an extra A level. Youre salary isn't calculated on qualifications. where have u seen this happen?

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Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:23 pm
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