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no english sides in semi finals of europe 
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:
eog wrote:
I think your whole attitude boils down to.
I'll accept the arrangement if English teams are successful but not if they're loosing.
If we pay we deserve to win.


Despite the fact nowhere did I say anything about who wins and purely about a fair share of the revenue and how many QUALIFY. But yeah, you'd much rather make up your own conspiracy wouldn't you?


In the 8 years 2000 to 2007 English clubs won in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2007.
An Irish province won in 2006
An English club next won in 2016.
From 2008 to 2015 an Irish province won in 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012.

You're fortunate that only one of the countries in the PRO has got their act together.
But money wise you're still the best.


Again, nowhere have I made any arguments about who won it. The change in format hasn't made it any more difficult for a Pro 14 team to win has it? My entire argument and the argument used by French and English clubs were that the qualification and split of revenue was unfair. You also ignore the fact that French sides won many years and were also the drivers of change, but that flies in the face of the little narrative you want to put together doesn't it? You feed this delusion that somehow the Pro 14 is this superior league being held back by unfair rules put in place by the English and French who are afraid to compete on a level playing field. Do you ever stop to think just how pathetic that sounds? You are just wheeling out strawman after strawman and haven't addressed any of the points I make, instead preferring to keep banging the drum about "oh England aren't winning so you want to change it".

The revenue isn't about having my cake and eating it... It's perfectly simple, under the Heineken cup arrangement the Pro 12 got as much of the revenue as the Aviva and Top 14 COMBINED despite raising less of it than either individually. Do please tell me how that is in any way fair. Now it's 1/3rd to each league with the Pro 14 still raising fair less than the Aviva or Top 14, so it is STILL set up to benefit the Pro 14 and yet here you are saying you have the bad deal. You STILL get an extra team qualifying by default and STILL have the chance to qualify more teams on merit. Again, tell me what in the current setup is biased against the Top 14. Come on this should be easy with how much you like to bang the drum about it being rigged. Describe exactly how the system is rigged against you.

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:18 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
The Pro 14 is seen as an easier competition by the English, where clubs can rest their players more, you hear this from English pundits in the media, you could hear this at the end of the 6 Nations and you will probably hear it more now that English teams have all been knocked out of the Champions Cup.
But it is not a Pro 14 problem, it is their own competition that is the problem, if they want to flog their players week in week out that is up to them, if Pro 14 clubs want to rest their players, like the Welsh can with players under the NDC's, and the Irish can with their own union contracted players, then that is smart thinking on their behalf.
If the English feel Pro 14 teams have an unfair advantage by being able to rest their best players, then the answer is simple, why don't they do it?
Top players are playing far too much rugby these days, what with Lions tours and summer tours down under, top players never really get a break from rugby. Wales plan to rest all their top players this summer, leaving them at home, saving them from yet another long season and a summer tour, smart thinking, if other unions don't do this with their players then that is their loss.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:56 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
The Abominable Dr. Phibes wrote:
The Pro 14 is seen as an easier competition by the English, where clubs can rest their players more, you hear this from English pundits in the media, you could hear this at the end of the 6 Nations and you will probably hear it more now that English teams have all been knocked out of the Champions Cup.
But it is not a Pro 14 problem, it is their own competition that is the problem, if they want to flog their players week in week out that is up to them, if Pro 14 clubs want to rest their players, like the Welsh can with players under the NDC's, and the Irish can with their own union contracted players, then that is smart thinking on their behalf.
If the English feel Pro 14 teams have an unfair advantage by being able to rest their best players, then the answer is simple, why don't they do it?
Top players are playing far too much rugby these days, what with Lions tours and summer tours down under, top players never really get a break from rugby. Wales plan to rest all their top players this summer, leaving them at home, saving them from yet another long season and a summer tour, smart thinking, if other unions don't do this with their players then that is their loss.


The justification is that there are fewer gimmi games in the Aviva than the Pro 14 and thus fewer times where you can afford to put out a 2nd string team and rest your best players. I don't agree with it and think that we have the wrong setup by flogging our players. However, as you said, that is a choice each club independently makes within their own competition.

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:06 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
The Abominable Dr. Phibes wrote:
The Pro 14 is seen as an easier competition by the English, where clubs can rest their players more, you hear this from English pundits in the media, you could hear this at the end of the 6 Nations and you will probably hear it more now that English teams have all been knocked out of the Champions Cup.
But it is not a Pro 14 problem, it is their own competition that is the problem, if they want to flog their players week in week out that is up to them, if Pro 14 clubs want to rest their players, like the Welsh can with players under the NDC's, and the Irish can with their own union contracted players, then that is smart thinking on their behalf.
If the English feel Pro 14 teams have an unfair advantage by being able to rest their best players, then the answer is simple, why don't they do it?
Top players are playing far too much rugby these days, what with Lions tours and summer tours down under, top players never really get a break from rugby. Wales plan to rest all their top players this summer, leaving them at home, saving them from yet another long season and a summer tour, smart thinking, if other unions don't do this with their players then that is their loss.


The justification is that there are fewer gimmi games in the Aviva than the Pro 14 and thus fewer times where you can afford to put out a 2nd string team and rest your best players. I don't agree with it and think that we have the wrong setup by flogging our players. However, as you said, that is a choice each club independently makes within their own competition.


The Pro 14 is getting harder actually, the Italians seem to be getting their act together, its a battle to get into the Champions Cup now, but I think the balance is about right. A lot of us envy your league, we see your fixtures as much more attractive than ours, but we must be careful what we wish for, we can look after our top players here, whereas if we were in a league like yours, the clubs would want their best players available every week, added to that the ever increasing number of international games, and the rugby treadmill would just keep on turning inextricably.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:30 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
The Abominable Dr. Phibes wrote:
The Pro 14 is seen as an easier competition by the English, where clubs can rest their players more, you hear this from English pundits in the media, you could hear this at the end of the 6 Nations and you will probably hear it more now that English teams have all been knocked out of the Champions Cup.
But it is not a Pro 14 problem, it is their own competition that is the problem, if they want to flog their players week in week out that is up to them, if Pro 14 clubs want to rest their players, like the Welsh can with players under the NDC's, and the Irish can with their own union contracted players, then that is smart thinking on their behalf.
If the English feel Pro 14 teams have an unfair advantage by being able to rest their best players, then the answer is simple, why don't they do it?
Top players are playing far too much rugby these days, what with Lions tours and summer tours down under, top players never really get a break from rugby. Wales plan to rest all their top players this summer, leaving them at home, saving them from yet another long season and a summer tour, smart thinking, if other unions don't do this with their players then that is their loss.


The justification is that there are fewer gimmi games in the Aviva than the Pro 14 and thus fewer times where you can afford to put out a 2nd string team and rest your best players. If Pro 14 teams want to wrap their players in pillows and play touch rugby for half the season that's their business and non of yours or the rest of English rugby. Talk about an imperial mentality. I don't agree with it and think that we have the wrong setup by flogging our players. Then on what planet is insisting your competitors flog their players as much as you do a fair and reasonable solution. However, as you said, that is a choice each club independently makes within their own competition. At last you're talking some sense


Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:32 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
The justification is that there are fewer gimmi games in the Aviva than the Pro 14 and thus fewer times where you can afford to put out a 2nd string team and rest your best players. If Pro 14 teams want to wrap their players in pillows and play touch rugby for half the season that's their business and non of yours or the rest of English rugby. Talk about an imperial mentality. I don't agree with it and think that we have the wrong setup by flogging our players. Then on what planet is insisting your competitors flog their players as much as you do a fair and reasonable solution. However, as you said, that is a choice each club independently makes within their own competition. At last you're talking some sense

Are you physically incapable of reading what I write and processing it before you respond? I say what the justification is and that I disagree with it and yet 2 of your comments are having a go at me for my "imperial" attitude and say "at last I'm talking sense"... Idiot. I mean it really isn't difficult to get to the end of what I have written and see what my stance is before you start spouting a load of drivel.

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:47 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
eog wrote:
The justification is that there are fewer gimmi games in the Aviva than the Pro 14 and thus fewer times where you can afford to put out a 2nd string team and rest your best players. If Pro 14 teams want to wrap their players in pillows and play touch rugby for half the season that's their business and non of yours or the rest of English rugby. Talk about an imperial mentality. I don't agree with it and think that we have the wrong setup by flogging our players. Then on what planet is insisting your competitors flog their players as much as you do a fair and reasonable solution. However, as you said, that is a choice each club independently makes within their own competition. At last you're talking some sense

Are you physically incapable of reading what I write and processing it before you respond? I say what the justification is and that I disagree with it and yet 2 of your comments are having a go at me for my "imperial" attitude and say "at last I'm talking sense"... Idiot. I mean it really isn't difficult to get to the end of what I have written and see what my stance is before you start spouting a load of drivel.

I think we've been at an impasse before and again you only seem to understand and appreciate the issue from your side of it.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:34 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
I think we've been at an impasse before and again you only seem to understand and appreciate the issue from your side of it.


No, this is literally you putting words in my mouth and arguing against things I'm not even proposing. For example right after I say I DON'T want the players flogged, you ask me one what planet that's a reasonable solution. Why should I know? I don't think it was a reasonable solution, I said I didn't think anyone should do it numerous times across numerous threads and yet there you are talking as if that's what I proposed. I spent a fair amount of time post 6N and last week saying it was ridiculous how flogged the English players are and how we need to change the system so why the hell are you asking me on what planet that is a reasonable solution? I'm arguing for the exact opposite!

You've made it clear you repeatedly read what you want to read as opposed to what I have actually written and are repeatedly building up straw man arguments based on things I haven't said or are the exact opposite of what I've said. I notice you still haven't provided any argument for how the current setup is rigged against you so I can only conclude you don't have a reason and, like most of your comments, is built on nothing but a desire to feel aggrieved. Either put up the reasons for why the Pro 14 is being hard done by the current situation or stop moaning about it.

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:21 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Here we go...

The Guardian
Quote:
Downsizing the European Champions Cup has been proposed as a way to protect player welfare if the Premiership is ring-fenced with more than 12 teams. Twenty clubs – including up to seven from England – currently take part in Europe’s elite competition but streamlining is among the suggestions made by powerbrokers of the English game in the event of an expanded Premiership.

Both the Premiership and the Rugby Football Union are in favour of removing promotion and relegation to and from England’s top flight but the major sticking point is how big it will be. There are 13 Premiership shareholders – the current 12 teams plus Bristol – and a handful of Championship clubs who have the ambition to join the elite.

It is understood the Premiership clubs do not want to expand beyond a 12-team ring-fenced league and as a result suggested a play-off between the bottom club and the winners of the Championship – to take place as early as next May – but the Guardian understands it has been rejected out of hand. The Championship’s heads of agreement with the RFU runs until the summer of 2020 so any structural changes before then would have required unanimous approval from the 12 second-tier clubs.

Nonetheless, there is an expectation that ring-fencing will be pushed through to start from the 2020-21 season when that agreement has ended. At present the Championship clubs receive in the region of £550,000 and that is likely to increase in the event of ring-fencing. As the current deal will have ended only a majority vote will be required and it is hard to imagine that not happening considering most Championship clubs are so reliant on the funding that comes from the RFU and Premiership Rugby Ltd.

But while ring-fencing seems increasingly inevitable, the issue of how to fit at least 13 clubs into a 12-team league remains. With relegation looming for London Irish, some clubs have looked into buying their shares from them but the Exiles have no intention of selling. Ealing Trailfinders, second in the Championship behind Bristol, have demonstrated the ambition – and significantly possess the requisite finances – to join the top flight, and it is understood the RFU has not ruled out a 14-team league, even if PRL is digging its heels in. Yorkshire Carnegie, who had their own Premiership shares until the end of last year, and Cornish Pirates have also demonstrated their ambitions with new stadiums planned, while Doncaster Knights have expressed an interest in joining the Premiership. Coventry, who will join the Championship next season, are also thinking big.

And if a 13- or 14-team Premiership were to materialise, it may be the European competitions that feel the pinch. There is a feeling that the Champions Cup has lost its aura with more than half of the Premiership taking part this season and fewer European matches would allow for an expanded top flight in England without adding to player workload.

While truncated European competitions could help solve the problem of determining how many teams occupy a ring-fenced top flight, there remain fears over how accessible it will be in the long term. Rather, access to the Premiership after either a four- or five- year hiatus would depend on certain criteria, including things such as supporter base and playing budget, exceeding that of one of the existing Premiership teams.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:22 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Now the conversation seems to have become less intense ...

the irony of the EPCR position is that the anglais are probably getting an increased allocation than before even considering the lack of presence in the final rounds ..

-i believe that tthe 15% performance money has been significantly reduced. I havent seen it formally stated but I have a quote from one of the PRL/EPCR execs that states that it has... It used to be 1% for each team in the final rounds ie 14% and 0.75% for the Challege winner and 0,25% for the runner up.

-When EPCR took over from ERC the% share out of the remaining 85% of allocatable revenue was shared 25% for eng and french. That was changed to 33% with a guaranteed amount for the Pro14 teams to prevent loss from their most recent revenue on the change of governance.

-Gate receipts would be affected in the Qs which are shared on a higher % for the home team. However, the semis and Final gate goes into the pot..

Regarding the guarantee .....this reflects back to the change of performance % which covered the overall shareout.

The french are less affected because of their Qs presence although performance reduction would be affected.

Previously when EPCR was HQ'd in Ireland accounts were public. I Switzerland this is not the case....so betting blind on revenue ofEPCR other than statements last Season e.g "increased income and allocation this Season"

PS there's also the affect of the Clubs that perform better ..they have to pay more bonuses :D

The playing field is not that level and that applies to the qualification to Champs Cup that has been covered above.

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Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:07 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:

No, this is literally you putting words in my mouth and arguing against things I'm not even proposing. For example right after I say I DON'T want the players flogged, you ask me one what planet that's a reasonable solution. Why should I know?


Just to help you out.
We both agree that the English Prem flogged it's players.
We both agree that the solution to this was for those running the English Prem to reduce the flogging the players in the league they ran recieved.
HOWEVER what happened in a nutshell was
Those running the English Prem insisted that the PRO Scot/Ire/CyM league change its qualification process so that the players in that league got flogged more than they had been.
ie Solve the problems caused by English players getting flogged through evening things up by insisting that the players of other countries be fogged more.

If you still don't get it there's nothing more I can do.


Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:44 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
see below

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Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Tony Panties wrote:
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:

No, this is literally you putting words in my mouth and arguing against things I'm not even proposing. For example right after I say I DON'T want the players flogged, you ask me one what planet that's a reasonable solution. Why should I know?


Just to help you out.
We both agree that the English Prem flogged it's players.
We both agree that the solution to this was for those running the English Prem to reduce the flogging the players in the league they ran recieved.
HOWEVER what happened in a nutshell was
Those running the English Prem insisted that the PRO Scot/Ire/CyM league change its qualification process so that the players in that league got flogged more than they had been.
ie Solve the problems caused by English players getting flogged through evening things up by insisting that the players of other countries be fogged more.

If you still don't get it there's nothing more I can do.


Don't really want to intervene in this conversation but isn't flogging players also a factor of intensity of play?

I watch the 3 leagues weekly and the intensity of play in general is tougher in Aviva and Top 14 with Top14 being the most confrontational?

Play offs and relegation certainly make the whole league committed to the end and the loss/reward of winning and losing somewhat greater?

On the player welfare issue I think that the increased financials of the Aviva and Top14 could excite more risk taking on injured players.

Does make a difference in the leagues although the EPCR is more of z level playing field with the french opting out more than most with Top14 in view.

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Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:26 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Tony Panties wrote:

Don't really want to intervene in this conversation but isn't flogging players also a factor of intensity of play?

I watch the 3 leagues weekly and the intensity of play in general is tougher in Aviva and Top 14 with Top14 being the most confrontational?

Play offs and relegation certainly make the whole league committed to the end and the loss/reward of winning and losing somewhat greater?

On the player welfare issue I think that the increased financials of the Aviva and Top14 could excite more risk taking on injured players.

Does make a difference in the leagues although the EPCR is more of z level playing field with the french opting out more than most with Top14 in view.


There's rugby with intensity and there's rugby that spectators/viewers find entertaining.
Of course you have to get the mix right but ring fenced competitions provide a better chance of getting the mix right than promotion/relegation competitions.
And if the mix results in success in international cup competitions and international games it's win win win.
The SH three and Ireland have taken the advantage ring fenced competitions provide. Scotland and even Italy have to an extent. We have less so.


Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:15 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:
So you want the tail to wag the dog with the teams who contribute the least financially to be able to overrule 2 unions, both of whom contribute more individually? I see that the short sighted rugby and short sighted financial path is your preferred option.Anything short of preferential treatment for the pro 14 is unfair? How is it preferential. Only England and France have the advantage of being able to support national club competitions. The rest are disadvantaged and so come together to create a joint competition. The arrangement is bugger all to do with either England and France. If they can't make their natural advantage pay off then tough. How about this for a thought, the pro 14 be required to put up 1/3rd of the total revenue for the competition. How about football exclude every European club except those from England Germany Spain and Italy. If you're so smart perhaps you should go tell them what to do.The old Heineken cup was skewed stupidly in favour of the pro 12, both for qualifying and financially. Both England and France, especially England think they have a god given right to be top dogs. When they aren't toys get thrown out, stampy stampy feet and financial bullying ensue. You have to be pretty one eyed to say the current system is less fair and pretty pathetic to say we will just try to rig the tournament in our favour.

Now rigging the tournament would be ensuring that the total playing salaries of England and France and Ire +Scot + Cym were the same. :lol:


This this and this again. It amuses me that some on here talk about meritocracy but only when it suits. Let’s see all clubs working from a level playing field otherwise a meritocracy simply doesn’t exist.


Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:27 pm
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