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no english sides in semi finals of europe 
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Post no english sides in semi finals of europe
so this season we have no english sides in the semi finals of europe and 3x pro14 sides in the semis so how long will it be again before english sides change the format of the competition agin so give there sides a better chance to win it. as they did when they got rid of the european format more sides in it. to replace it with the champions cup . they will wait and see


Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:47 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
I cannot see the format changing Neil, and nor should it beyone one small tweak. it is working, and proving to be much more competitive than the old Heineken Cup (which i loved).

Meritocratic qualification was always needed, and a reduction in total teams competing a great idea. However now we have to create a true meritocratic system the pro14 with the top teams only being involved, not having a quota of at least one team from Italy, or indded any country, being automatically included as that still breeds under achievement. Also we have to look at introducing the Kings and Cheetahs if they are commmited long term to the pro14.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:47 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
wombles wrote:
I cannot see the format changing Neil, and nor should it beyone one small tweak. it is working, and proving to be much more competitive than the old Heineken Cup (which i loved).

Meritocratic qualification was always needed, and a reduction in total teams competing a great idea. However now we have to create a true meritocratic system the pro14 with the top teams only being involved, not having a quota of at least one team from Italy, or indded any country, being automatically included as that still breeds under achievement. Also we have to look at introducing the Kings and Cheetahs if they are commmited long term to the pro14.


The whole point of a geographically defined competition, in this case the geographically defined area is Europe, is to involve all the countries in that area.
Football does it with it's European club competitions so should rugby in principle.
However in reality there are a miserably low number of countries who can supply club teams for such a rugby competition. Just six - Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Italy and Cymru.
To want to eliminate one or more based on a crude meritocracy is both selfish and short sighted. When England and France dictating how the other countries arranged for their teams to enter the competition they should have been told to f*ck off and sort out their own business. Just as they should be the next time they set out to rig the competitions in order to cover up the inadequacy of their own under achieving domestic club competitions.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:37 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
So you want the tail to wag the dog with the teams who contribute the least financially to be able to overrule 2 unions, both of whom contribute more individually? Anything short of preferential treatment for the pro 14 is unfair? How about this for a thought, the pro 14 be required to put up 1/3rd of the total revenue for the competition. The old Heineken cup was skewed stupidly in favour of the pro 12, both for qualifying and financially. You have to be pretty one eyed to say the current system is less fair and pretty pathetic to say we will just try to rig the tournament in our favour.

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:46 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Eog i am afraid your views are misguided. Meritocratic entry into the Champions cup is the only fair way, anything less requires the purposeful removal of a team that over the course of a season finished higher in the pro14 than a team that 'must' be in the competiton so we can tick a 'this country represented' box. THIS is not fair, especially as the higher placed team would of commited themselves both through player and coaching performance and dedication, with the clubs and their fans financially involved. If a team wants to play in the top competition they earn it by right, not through quotas and need for representation.

Troron is spot on with his observations in regards to financial commitment also the old HC being unfavourably scewed to the benefit if the pro 12.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:02 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
So you want the tail to wag the dog with the teams who contribute the least financially to be able to overrule 2 unions, both of whom contribute more individually? I see that the short sighted rugby and short sighted financial path is your preferred option.Anything short of preferential treatment for the pro 14 is unfair? How is it preferential. Only England and France have the advantage of being able to support national club competitions. The rest are disadvantaged and so come together to create a joint competition. The arrangement is bugger all to do with either England and France. If they can't make their natural advantage pay off then tough. How about this for a thought, the pro 14 be required to put up 1/3rd of the total revenue for the competition. How about football exclude every European club except those from England Germany Spain and Italy. If you're so smart perhaps you should go tell them what to do.The old Heineken cup was skewed stupidly in favour of the pro 12, both for qualifying and financially. Both England and France, especially England think they have a god given right to be top dogs. When they aren't toys get thrown out, stampy stampy feet and financial bullying ensue. You have to be pretty one eyed to say the current system is less fair and pretty pathetic to say we will just try to rig the tournament in our favour.

Now rigging the tournament would be ensuring that the total playing salaries of England and France and Ire +Scot + Cym were the same. :lol:


Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:09 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
I see that the short sighted rugby and short sighted financial path is your preferred option
How is it preferential. Only England and France have the advantage of being able to support national club competitions. The rest are disadvantaged and so come together to create a joint competition. The arrangement is bugger all to do with either England and France. If they can't make their natural advantage pay off then tough.
How about football exclude every European club except those from England Germany Spain and Italy. If you're so smart perhaps you should go tell them what to do.
Both England and France, especially England think they have a god given right to be top dogs. When they aren't toys get thrown out, stampy stampy feet and financial bullying ensue.
Now rigging the tournament would be ensuring that the total playing salaries of England and France and Ire +Scot + Cym were the same. :lol:


Well let's take this apart... Firstly I didn't say anything about short sightedness, I said some of what you lot propose is taking the piss. You want the smallest union that contributes the least financially and gets the most teams qualifying by default should dictate terms to the 2 unions that make the tournament viable at all... It is preferential because, even after being reallocated, the Pro 14 still receives 1/3rd of the revenue despite not raising 1/3rd of it. It's a massive net gain and is the only union that takes out a greater proportion than it puts in. Under the Heineken cup it was even more skewed with the Pro 12 taking more revenue than the Aviva and Top 14 combined despite contributing less than either individually. Now I don't mind so much that the Pro 14 gets this arrangement, I do mind when you try to turn around and claim we are rigging it in our favour when it's still in your favour. The Heineken cup was a joke in terms of qualification and funding and the current setup is much fairer.

I find it quite telling that your response is to start getting all snarky. If anyone is acting like they have a god given right to something, it's people with an attitude like yours. Let's get this straight, you think the Pro12/14 getting more than half of the total revenue, getting 2 extra qualifying teams by default with the possibility of then having even more teams through merit based qualifying was fair but now the Pro 14 getting 1/3rd of the revenue with 1 extra automatic qualifying team is unfair? Rather than whinging about how hard done by you are, why don't you just say exactly how the current system is rigged to favour the Aviva or Top14. Name any aspect of the champions cup where either league gets preferential treatment to the Pro 14.

Ultimately it boils down not so much to who gets preferential treatment but that fact that people like you from the Pro 14 are just constantly whinging about the English and the French, accusing us of rigging the system and a whole load of other stuff all because you no longer get vastly unfair preferential treatment. You are the ones who seem to feel you have a god given right to have your unions bankrolled by England and France.

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:28 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
wombles wrote:
Eog i am afraid your views are misguided. Meritocratic entry into the Champions cup is the only fair way, anything less requires the purposeful removal of a team that over the course of a season finished higher in the pro14 than a team that 'must' be in the competiton so we can tick a 'this country represented' box.The four European countries are only in the PRO14 because none of them can support their own national competitions on their own. the PRO14 enables all of them to have top level professional club rugby which otherwise they couldn't have. One of the costs of that is that clubs from every country get(used to get) entered into a top euro competition. THIS is not fair, It's not fair but it is farsighted and of benefit to all four countries and even English and French rugby in the longer term. especially as the higher placed team would of commited themselves both through player and coaching performance and dedication, with the clubs and their fans financially involved. If a team wants to play in the top competition they earn it by right, not through quotas Why not have an equal quota for funding player salaries for every club across Europe if you're such a tub thumper for equal opportunities :roll: and need for representation.

Troron is spot on with his observations in regards to financial commitment also the old HC being unfavourably scewed to the benefit if the pro 12.


It as only a problem because English clubs were getting beaten regularly by Irish provinces. When English clubs ruled there wasn't peep out of them regarding how the Celtic three organized themselves.

I'd like to see European club competitions where clubs from a dozen countries were capable of winning it. In well over a century Rugby has failed to develop a global game. Now well into the professional era we have the -we pay more therefore we must to be given priority - stifling the game .


Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:34 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
It as only a problem because English clubs were getting beaten regularly by Irish provinces. When English clubs ruled there wasn't peep out of them regarding how the Celtic three organized themselves.

I'd like to see European club competitions where clubs from a dozen countries were capable of winning it. In well over a century Rugby has failed to develop a global game. Now well into the professional era we have the -we pay more therefore we must to be given priority - stifling the game .


Except the way it was reorganised did no affect the top Irish clubs. You just want to see conspiracy because a fundamentally unfair system was corrected and it coincided with English and French clubs rising anyway. I mean seriously, did you even look at how many English and French were getting through to the knock out stages in the Heineken cup before it was changed? Here you go for the last 5 Heineken Cups:

2010: 2 Irish, 4 French, 1 Welsh, 1 English
2011: 2 Irish, 2 English, 4 French
2012: 3 Irish, 2 French, 1 English, 1 Scottish, 1 Welsh
2013: 2 Irish, 3 English, 3 French
2014: 3 Irish, 3 French, 2 English

But yeah, continue to portray it as a great conspiracy by the English and French. Also it's basically the Pro 12 and 14 piggy backing on Irish success and claiming it as their own.

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:46 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
eog wrote:
I see that the short sighted rugby and short sighted financial path is your preferred option
How is it preferential. Only England and France have the advantage of being able to support national club competitions. The rest are disadvantaged and so come together to create a joint competition. The arrangement is bugger all to do with either England and France. If they can't make their natural advantage pay off then tough.
How about football exclude every European club except those from England Germany Spain and Italy. If you're so smart perhaps you should go tell them what to do.
Both England and France, especially England think they have a god given right to be top dogs. When they aren't toys get thrown out, stampy stampy feet and financial bullying ensue.
Now rigging the tournament would be ensuring that the total playing salaries of England and France and Ire +Scot + Cym were the same. :lol:


Well let's take this apart... Firstly I didn't say anything about short sightedness, Of course you didn't say anything you can't see that your attitude is short sighted. I pointed that to you. I said some of what you lot propose is taking the piss. You want the smallest union you mean league that contributes the least financially and gets the most teams qualifying by default should dictate terms to the 2 unions that make the tournament viable at all...Well that's sort of the way every international football competition is run. But what do they know with their unpopular, unprofitable game. Well It is preferential because, even after being reallocated, the Pro 14 still receives 1/3rd of the revenue despite not raising 1/3rd of it. Oh boo hoo my heart bleeds for you. I tell you what you and France have your own competition and you can look at the increased piles of money you both have instead of having to watch your teams play your poor relations. It's a massive net gain and is the only union that takes out a greater proportion than it puts in. Under the Heineken cup it was even more skewed with the Pro 12 taking more revenue than the Aviva and Top 14 combined despite contributing less than either individually. Now I don't mind so much that the Pro 14 gets this arrangement, I do mind when you try to turn around and claim we are rigging it in our favour when it's still in your favour. The Heineken cup was a joke in terms of qualification and funding and the current setup is much fairer. You can't have a European club completion without teams from Ire, Scot, Italy and Cym involved. You the rugby enthusiasts of England have to decide if you want that and if you do then you have to accept that those countries need the richer countries to finance them. Or whether instead you'd prefer an exclusive rugby reach around with France. Chose one and stop whining.


Paraphrased to -whining about how badly treated English rugby is

Paraphrased to - more of same

.

I think your whole attitude boils down to.
I'll accept the arrangement if English teams are successful but not if they're loosing.
If we pay we deserve to win.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:13 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
I think your whole attitude boils down to.
I'll accept the arrangement if English teams are successful but not if they're loosing.
If we pay we deserve to win.


Despite the fact nowhere did I say anything about who wins and purely about a fair share of the revenue and how many QUALIFY. But yeah, you'd much rather make up your own conspiracy wouldn't you?

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:20 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Lets just face some facts England were 5th in the 6N and have no sides in the semi finals of Europe's premier rugby competition therefore English rugby is rubbish........at the moment. After 2 years of 6N and Euro success the tide has turned and no doubt in the future it will turn again. So just suck it up. stop bitching and accept it while the rest of European rugby points and laughs

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Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:31 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
eog wrote:
I think your whole attitude boils down to.
I'll accept the arrangement if English teams are successful but not if they're loosing.
If we pay we deserve to win.


Despite the fact nowhere did I say anything about who wins and purely about a fair share of the revenue and how many QUALIFY. But yeah, you'd much rather make up your own conspiracy wouldn't you?


In the 8 years 2000 to 2007 English clubs won in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2007.
An Irish province won in 2006
An English club next won in 2016.
From 2008 to 2015 an Irish province won in 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012.

You're fortunate that only one of the countries in the PRO has got their act together.
But money wise you're still the best.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:05 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
Despite the fact nowhere did I say anything about who wins and purely about a fair share of the revenue then you end up just playing French teams. Make you mind up what it is you want you can't have your cake and eat it and how many QUALIFY. It's got bugger all to do with England how other countries determine which of their teams qualify for the competition. It's arrogance combined with financial self righteousness to assume otherwise. But yeah, you'd much rather make up your own conspiracy wouldn't you?


Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:21 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
I agree with Troron here. The new Champions Cup qualification rules have not only made the Pro 14 itself more competitive and meaningful, but also improved the quality of the new European Cup compared to the old one, with fewer matches being 'gimmes'. By contrast, under the old rules, all the Scottish (after Border Reivers were axed) and Italian teams entered regardless of league position, while all the Irish and Welsh teams had to do most seasons was ensure they finished above Connacht and the Dragons respectively. What's more, now that automatic qualification for one team per country is being axed altogether, it has to be said that if the Italian teams cannot succeed in the Pro 14 (though Benetton in particular are improving), then tough. Certainly at European level, it is astoundingly rare for any Italian team to win more than one match during the pool stages.


Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:38 pm
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