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no english sides in semi finals of europe 
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:

No, this is literally you putting words in my mouth and arguing against things I'm not even proposing. For example right after I say I DON'T want the players flogged, you ask me one what planet that's a reasonable solution. Why should I know?


Just to help you out.
We both agree that the English Prem flogged it's players.
We both agree that the solution to this was for those running the English Prem to reduce the flogging the players in the league they ran recieved.
HOWEVER what happened in a nutshell was
Those running the English Prem insisted that the PRO Scot/Ire/CyM league change its qualification process so that the players in that league got flogged more than they had been.
ie Solve the problems caused by English players getting flogged through evening things up by insisting that the players of other countries be fogged more.

If you still don't get it there's nothing more I can do.


Laughable... It took you this long to work out what I was arguing for. I see though you seem to still think the Pro 14 should have a veto on the rules of qualification that apply to everyone. Newsflash, every union gets a say in the qualification rules because they apply to everyone. You still think it is rigged despite Pro 14 getting the best deal in qualification. Again you haven't shown just how it's been rigged against you. It's also hilarious how you say the English and French and rigging the tournament to cover up their failing domestic leagues and then proceed to say it's unfair because the English and French leagues have more money...

Let's just see what you said:

"I see that the short sighted rugby and short sighted financial path is your preferred option." - Never advocated it

"Both England and France, especially England think they have a god given right to be top dogs. When they aren't toys get thrown out, stampy stampy feet and financial bullying ensue." - Nope, both England and France think qualification and split of revenue should be pretty equal between all 3 unions. It's the Pro 14 who think they have a god given right to have more teams qualify by default and a god given right to take away more money than England and France combined. You still haven't said how a 1/3rd share and over 1/3rd of teams qualifying is unfair for the Pro 14.

"It's not fair but it is farsighted and of benefit to all four countries and even English and French rugby in the longer term." - So even when admitted you are benefitting from the English and French funding your system, you still whinge about how we are trying to rig it? As you say, can't have your cake and eat it. You can't claim we are a bunch of greedy, self interested clubs only looking out for ourselves and then simultaneously whinge because you want even more subsidy. It's like a kid whinging at their parent because they "only" give them a certain amount to top up their earnings. People aren't proposing an end to that or asking for thanks all the time, just asking that you stop pretending you are somehow being hard done by when you benefit from the arrangement a lot.

"Of course you didn't say anything you can't see that your attitude is short sighted. I pointed that to you" - Despite it not being my view, how many times did I repeat it before you finally worked it out?

"You can't have a European club completion without teams from Ire, Scot, Italy and Cym involved. You the rugby enthusiasts of England have to decide if you want that and if you do then you have to accept that those countries need the richer countries to finance them. Or whether instead you'd prefer an exclusive rugby reach around with France. Chose one and stop whining." - The irony being that the entire argument was about how much YOU lot whine despite getting a good deal out of it.

I mean you STILL base your entire argument on a desire to feel hard done by whilst being the league that benefits the most in every aspect from the current arrangement and even moreso in the Heineken cup. Everything you have said shows you feel the English and French are duty bound to fund you whilst also bending over backwards to all your demands and also accepting you having a veto in all decisions and having no say in how Pro 14 teams qualify whilst pro 14 teams have a say in how English and French teams qualify. Here is the little reality, if you want England and France to continue putting the majority of the money up you are also going to have to accept that England and France will want a pretty sizeable say in how the competition is run, moreso than the Top 14.

Yeah if England and France had their own competition it would be far less than the current situation, however it could still be viable. Pro 14 would not be able to offer anything viable in response. It's like the Scots who claimed the UK needed Scotland more than Scotland needed the UK...

TL;DR, the Pro 14 get a better deal than either the Aviva or Top 14 out of the European cup even after the changes so stop whinging all the time.

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Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:46 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Troron wrote:
.............
England and France to continue putting the majority of the money up you are also going to have to accept that England and France will want a pretty sizeable say in how the competition is run, moreso than the Top 14.
...........


You could have saved yourself a lot of time and effort struggling to compose a mega post as the above neatly summarizes your opinion.
Ironically it's the very opinion that I've been pointing out that you (and English rugby) have.
Diolch :D


Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:45 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
eog wrote:
Troron wrote:
.............
England and France to continue putting the majority of the money up you are also going to have to accept that England and France will want a pretty sizeable say in how the competition is run, moreso than the Top 14.
...........


You could have saved yourself a lot of time and effort struggling to compose a mega post as the above neatly summarizes your opinion.
Ironically it's the very opinion that I've been pointing out that you (and English rugby) have.
Diolch :D


2 leagues involved in a competition want say in how said competition is run? SHOCK HORROR!

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Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:24 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
I'm not sure how the English could get us to flog our players like theirs are, but if it were possible I'm sure they'd try.


Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:23 pm
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
The deployment of the three leagues argument was very clever by PRL. The old Heino was based on countries/unions. The monies were allocated to each union except PRL took over that role instead of the RFU, and possibly the LNR as well although I know they spread the Euro monies into the second division teams as well IIRC.

Thus IRFU or WRU went from 13% of the pot for their respective teams down to 7-8% I think.
The English RFU went from 24% of the pot to 33%.
Thus the point that was being made was the individual unions were losing out.

The minute argument got shifted to it being about three leagues not six unions, the PRL and LNR had won their battle.

Very smart.

The arguments about resting and roatating players were not so smart or informed. Complaining in 2012 about a playing management system that the IRFU had in place since 2004 was laughable, and as shown subsequently, they didn’t change it at all despite the changes to PRO12 and the new Champions Cup.

Nonetheless, ironically, with the decrease in Euro Cup revenue in real terms for PRO12 unions and the sharp increase in salaries driven by English and French TV deals, top foreign player salaries became unaffordable and the Irish and Scottish unions started investing more in their domestic pathways which have now borne fruit with the younger players that have emerged. In addition, the equally ironic fact is that the much derided Irish playing management system is now being cited as the way to go for the Premiership.

And there’s talk that if the Premiership expands to 14 teams like the other two are, they’ll want to reduce the number of teams/games in the European Cup because the comp is not as valued as it once was and they’ll have more league games to play.

Swings and roundabouts.


Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:16 am
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Post Re: no english sides in semi finals of europe
Pot Hale wrote:
The deployment of the three leagues argument was very clever by PRL. The old Heino was based on countries/unions. The monies were allocated to each union except PRL took over that role instead of the RFU, and possibly the LNR as well although I know they spread the Euro monies into the second division teams as well IIRC.

Thus IRFU or WRU went from 13% of the pot for their respective teams down to 7-8% I think.
The English RFU went from 24% of the pot to 33%.
Thus the point that was being made was the individual unions were losing out.

The minute argument got shifted to it being about three leagues not six unions, the PRL and LNR had won their battle.

Very smart.

The arguments about resting and roatating players were not so smart or informed. Complaining in 2012 about a playing management system that the IRFU had in place since 2004 was laughable, and as shown subsequently, they didn’t change it at all despite the changes to PRO12 and the new Champions Cup.

Nonetheless, ironically, with the decrease in Euro Cup revenue in real terms for PRO12 unions and the sharp increase in salaries driven by English and French TV deals, top foreign player salaries became unaffordable and the Irish and Scottish unions started investing more in their domestic pathways which have now borne fruit with the younger players that have emerged. In addition, the equally ironic fact is that the much derided Irish playing management system is now being cited as the way to go for the Premiership.

And there’s talk that if the Premiership expands to 14 teams like the other two are, they’ll want to reduce the number of teams/games in the European Cup because the comp is not as valued as it once was and they’ll have more league games to play.

Swings and roundabouts.


Ref shareout ...worth mentioning that the agreement gave a guaranteed amount to the Proxx in the short term which ensured no immediate Seasons loss..

However, both the qualification and shareout new rules did penalise the Proxx teams in the longer term

Also, and not well known, the % allocation to performance (15%) of available revenue was reduced. The increased Pro14 presence in the final rounds are thus penalised too.

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Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:38 am
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