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All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise! 
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Post All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Once again the fact that all "flat" threequarter passes are forward was proved by a late tackle which lead to Alex Cuthbert's late "try" being disallowed in the Cardiff-Munster game. It's a question of "relative velocities". If two threequarter's are running at 30km/h and the receiver is 5 metres away and 1 metre behind the passer a pass directly to hand will actually be 1 metre foward. This is never usually realised unless the passer is late tackled.

Until there is a law change (as I belived has happened in rugby league), let's get wise and get that late tackle in as referees only seem to see the foward pass in a try scoring situation and never the late tackle. The law must be changed (e.g."if one player is behind the other and the pass is directly to hand") as fowl play is at present rewarded (and probably coached in this situation by the street-wise Irish).

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Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:18 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
These hugely muscular players can't pass the ball backwards ....


Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:26 am
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Isnt momentum of the ball going forward due to the speed that a player is running at allowed ?

I thought it was the angle of the pass that mattered..
Defiantly the easiest to spot


Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:33 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
lloydsa wrote:
Isnt momentum of the ball going forward due to the speed that a player is running at allowed ?

I thought it was the angle of the pass that mattered..
Defiantly the easiest to spot


Not sure of the exact phrase in the Law book, but isn't it along the lines of the ball cannot be passed forward, so a backward pass and a flat pass are ok.
If a flat pass is ok, and the ball was passed backwards, but momentum of the player means the pass drifts forward, like a backward pass that hits the floor and bounces forward and is not a knock-on, is not deemed a forward pass?

What if a ball is passed backwards and the wind blows it forward?

So many questions!

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Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:20 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
DaiJC, you can't come on here first time,and use words like "relative velocities". . We have children reading this forum. :D


Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:38 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Time to get out the ubiquitous video!!


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Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:41 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Quote:
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.


So as long as the ball leaves the passers hands away from or parrallell with the Dead ball Line it is not a forward pass.

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Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:47 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Thanks SJ,

So the law states that "a throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line. "

But the video, from the grid lines, shows all passes are forward even overhead ones. What is this video to refs saying - "yes it is forward but we'll ignore it because the law is wrong"?

When it's a real match and players (not tackle bags) tackle the passer the instance the ball is released I would say 75% of the time a foward pass ruling is given.

So what am I saying?

Change the law to reflect reality
In the meantime stop whinging and late tackle the passer quickly
Cardiff beat Munster!


Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:04 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
There also seems to be some confusion over if the ball goes backward, but lands on a point and bounces forward.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:25 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
MobyDuck wrote:
There also seems to be some confusion over if the ball goes backward, but lands on a point and bounces forward.


That one has always annoyed me too - as far as I'm concerned if it falls backwards but bounces forward it is clearly not a knock on/forward pass - but so many refs call it


Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:38 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Then "so many" refs are wrong.

The ball goes backwards as its first direction - no more to be said.

Good touch judges call it correctly, if they are ever asked.


Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:31 am
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Bouch wrote:

Good touch judges call it correctly, if they are ever asked.


They cannot.

The referee exists in the same inertial frame of reference as the players.

The TJs are outside it.

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Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:58 pm
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Cwlcymro wrote:
MobyDuck wrote:
There also seems to be some confusion over if the ball goes backward, but lands on a point and bounces forward.


That one has always annoyed me too - as far as I'm concerned if it falls backwards but bounces forward it is clearly not a knock on/forward pass - but so many refs call it


Another one to add to the list of scew ups by many refs. Once the ball hits the ground the pass is complete, so if the ball then bounces forward, it matters not one jot. It is the point at which the ball makes contact with another player or the pitch that sets the laws in motion.

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Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:46 am
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
Law 12: Knock-on or throw forward. Definition: A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. Forward means towards the opposing team's dead ball line."*

Has there ever been such a fuss about something that reads so simply?

We're not talking about bridging at the breakdown or a tighthead prop boring in on the opposition hooker at scrum time. We're talking about the act of passing the ball via hand from one teammate to another - the very essence of rugby.

Yet nothing has perplexed coaches, commentators, spectators and, yes, referees this Super 15 season as much as the forward pass.

Frustrated referees' boss Lyndon Bray spoke out last week about the Year of the Forward Pass.

To paraphrase, he said: "It's physics - can't you guys get it through your skulls that it's a simple matter of physics."

Or something like that.

The strange thing is that he is right and he's got the experts on his side.

"Basically it's got to be going backwards from the player, faster than the player is running forwards," said professor Matthew Collett, who teaches theoretical physics at the University of Auckland.

"So if the player throws the ball backwards and throws it slower than the speed he is running at, then relative to the ground, the pass will be going forward."

Another way to think about it is to imagine throwing an apple core from a moving car. Try throwing it straight at a fixed point. It is impossible.

The slower the throw, the more it moves relative to the ground and the more it will miss the point you aimed for.

The same principle applies to making a backwards pass while running forward. Where the ball ends up might not be where it's propelled.

So with law 12, the ball was not passed or thrown forward, even though it ended up forward of the point it was released at.

It is the Galilean Transformation in action, obviously.

Signore Galilei has a lot to answer for, including convincing sailors they could pitch their boats off the edge of the world and find their way home via the stars, but his work in deconstructing the forward pass was ahead of his time.

"The velocity in one reference frame is the velocity of the other reference frame plus the relative velocity of the frames," said Collett.

"Here, you're interested in the ball compared to the ground and that's the velocity of the ball compared to the player plus the velocity of the player compared to the ground."

Simple, no?

So maths and science get referees off the hook for a lot of the long passes our uneducated eyes tell us are forward.

What we don't have is a scientific equation that excuses errors off short passes like the one thrown by Will Genia to Ben Tapuai in the Crusaders' galling 16-17 loss to the Reds last month - a loss that looks certain to add thousands more air miles to their Koru Club season.

There is an unscientific equation, however: bad referee positioning + incognisant touch judges + lack of concentration = poor decisions.

* Source: IRB Laws of the Game, Rugby Union 2011.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/ar ... d=10734347


Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:23 am
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Post Re: All "flat" threequarter passes are forward - let's get wise!
if you are reffing you can get a good from the passers body movement if it was forward or not. But as it is stated, you have to be 'up with play' or it is well difficult. I just look at the position of passer and receiver at the time of pass. forget the rest, if he is infront, he is pinged. 'flat' is a tough call,

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Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:26 pm
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