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Kiwis to France 
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Post Kiwis to France
Tel, time will tell if the roof is going to cave in on NZ rugby. I still don’t believe the mainstay ABs will go anywhere for a while yet. As I said, the fringe AB’s might be tempted, the ones you mentioned were just that, fringe. Fekitoa had so many opportunities but he just couldn’t take them, that’s why he left. TKB was the 3rd choice AB, so left. It’s no different to players like Evans in the past. Kiwis want to wear black, after that they want to have a number under 15. I can’t see NH money changing that.

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:10 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
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Loosie I disagree with you regarding level of players, I think that the NZRFU are begining to fear ABs leaving (already recently we have seen current AB squad players leaving ...not top ABs but current squad ...Fekitoa, Kerr-Barlow, FAumunina and younger Tamanivalu who came over and played during the AI's). I think also that you fail to recognise the level of the upsurge in expense to keep these players, cue the formal stats in the article.

I also believe, as stated, that the 'plan' is overly ambitious in terms of cherry picking teams for sabaticals, NZ coaches etc, that won't happen? ...I can't see the LNR and PRL and big business Presidents kowtowing to NZ dictate.

I have isolated the following in the NZ Herald article and I believe that the NZRFU are rightly being pre-emptive and looking, as stated in the article, beyond the next W Cup with regard to keeping AB level players.

As we say in french 'on verra' ...we will see.
-----------------------
quotes :

Player exodus is nothing new but the vast majority used to depart after a four-year World Cup cycle. Now, the lure of the All Blacks and chance to feature at pinnacle events is not enough for some even within the match-day squad. Regardless of age, securing financial futures

The theory is by attempting to facilitate offshore stints, NZR can allow leading players to cash in for one or two years and then guarantee their return.

Still, for an organisation steadfast in its policy of not selecting players from overseas, actively helping All Blacks spend time abroad represents a major shift.

In late 2016, NZR and the Players' Association invested an extra $70 million into the player payment pool, increasing the pot from $121 million to $191 million over the next three years. And yet still they struggle to compete

Indeed, while most leading All Blacks are locked in to the 2019 World Cup, fears are understood to be mounting about what the New Zealand rugby landscape could look like come 2020.

No doubt new talent will emerge, but Super Rugby and so, too, eventually the international game, could suffer dramatically if key players exit at the same rates

I don’t fail to recognize the money to keep them, when you say things like that it makes you look like a dad trying to talk to his son. It’s not some obscure thing that I’d need to research, it says that in the article.

It might be overly ambitious but being ambitious has got them to where they are, so I hope they continue. I don’t quite understand what you mean about cow towing? No one will have any say except the teams who are connected to the NZRFU, or am I missing something here?

Also, whenever an article starts off with “details can’t be finalized but....”, I kind of take it with a few grains of salt.

Let’s be honest, this kind of stuff has been talked about for years, when McAllister and Evans left, many thought it was the start of mass exodus, and all it was was a few fringe players who new they’d not be able to nail a starting jersey.

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:23 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
loosechange wrote:
I don’t fail to recognize the money to keep them, when you say things like that it makes you look like a dad trying to talk to his son. It’s not some obscure thing that I’d need to research, it says that in the article.

It might be overly ambitious but being ambitious has got them to where they are, so I hope they continue. I don’t quite understand what you mean about cow towing? No one will have any say except the teams who are connected to the NZRFU, or am I missing something here?

Also, whenever an article starts off with “details can’t be finalized but....”, I kind of take it with a few grains of salt.

Let’s be honest, this kind of stuff has been talked about for years, when McAllister and Evans left, many thought it was the start of mass exodus, and all it was was a few fringe players who new they’d not be able to nail a starting jersey.


This is what I tried to explain. Coming to the SH boards and acting like you know more about what's going on with our union, and then being condescending to every kiwi here with the "you don't understand the financials" rubbish is what gets him a bad reception.

Come and talk rugby. A post here starting with a French newspaper clipping and going on to forecast doom and gloom for NZ rugby has a 100% record over the last 10 years of just being an argument with nothing good from it. It's just trolling. Why not just post it in the French forum - it's from a French newspaper. Then he can just argue with people who believe the sky is falling down here.

Since rugby went pro in 1995 we've been told: "Oh this is the end for rugby in NZ". We've won the last two RWCs. We've won 5/7 of the last Super Rugby titles in the same period. The boys have won 90% of their matches since 2010. When is this disaster going to happen?

The NZRU will identify partner clubs in Europe and Japan with owners who can see the value in deals with our union that benefit both parties - and free up the kiwi players for our tournaments. It'll happen, and there'll be a surprising lack of French newspapers scans posted here about it.


Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:02 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
Requested Mods action to delete the 2 extra posts above, apologies

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:12 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
I wasn’t looking for a shitfight, there’s been a few threads locked and I wanted to reply without any shit.

I think you are (or we are) misplacing this big concern about players leaving, it’s just standard planning, it’s been happening for ages, players leaving, and the NZRFU is looking for new ideas, doesn’t mean the ABs are going to walk. I’m sure they are gutted losing the players mentioned, but still no ABs in these articles. It’s fringe players who can’t hail down a spot. The NZRFU are just continuing to try and keep up with the NH coin. If it works, great, if not, try something else. No harm in trying.

In my humblest of uneducated opinions, I think most pro players would choose the AB starting jersey over any extra money. Being part of a tour up north still seems like something most players would give almost anything for. They want to travel/play with the blackness, they want to get the bledisloe, and they want to play in a World Cup. They can’t get those things at club level.

I guess there’s no need to talk about this anymore, if nothing happens after Japan 2019, then we’ll have the same conversation in 2021. If things do change, then you’ll finally get to say “I told you so”.

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:42 pm
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
loosechange wrote:
I wasn’t looking for a shitfight, there’s been a few threads locked and I wanted to reply without any shit.

I think you are (or we are) misplacing this big concern about players leaving, it’s just standard planning, it’s been happening for ages, players leaving, and the NZRFU is looking for new ideas, doesn’t mean the ABs are going to walk. I’m sure they are gutted losing the players mentioned, but still no ABs in these articles. It’s fringe players who can’t hail down a spot. The NZRFU are just continuing to try and keep up with the NH coin. If it works, great, if not, try something else. No harm in trying.

In my humblest of uneducated opinions, I think most pro players would choose the AB starting jersey over any extra money. Being part of a tour up north still seems like something most players would give almost anything for. They want to travel/play with the blackness, they want to get the bledisloe, and they want to play in a World Cup. They can’t get those things at club level.

I guess there’s no need to talk about this anymore, if nothing happens after Japan 2019, then we’ll have the same conversation in 2021. If things do change, then you’ll finally get to say “I told you so”.


Loosie, I don't want contention and I hope that you have noted my comment about the franglais and how they should stop throwing money at a quick fix and instead invest to good effect on development... God only knows that they have a significant # and talent potential! I was also worried that when I can see a potential increased but managed and allowed offload on sabbaticals I'm worried about a further degradation of foreigner effect in the N Hemp!

Forgive me for saying so but I do believe that there does seem to be a S Hemp opinion on here that doesn't reflect the increasing concern voiced by people directly responsible for major rugby administration.

Ledrum, who is directly concerned and responsible, seems to give it a more serious concern? ... and when Gosper a senior member of the highest echelon admits the concern and offer nothing that is, imo, worrying for Rugby in general.

reference the lure of the AB jersey, I would agree but what happens afterwards, the article also makes the point that 'nearly but not quite' ABs leave that softens the experience and quality of the Super Rugby sector (not my words but in the article).

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Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:55 pm
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
Players have, and always will leave, that’s just reality really. I think the quality might be slightly better but I also think the kiwi production line has improved out of sight as well, I think part of the reason that grass roots were heavily invested in was to try and combat the amount of players leaving.

The concern shown by the big wigs, seems pretty similar to the concern that’s always been shown imho. It’s always been a concern, and thankfully the NZRFU have tried to keep a step ahead, fingers crossed that will continue, don’t really see much evidence of it changing tbh. The other kiwis on here, like me, have heard it all before, we’ve been hearing it since the 80’s in NZ. It’ll be 30 years on after the next WC, and if we win(big if, nothing is certain) then all the talk over the last 35 years was just media trumped up *b@ll@cks*. Even if we don’t win, it still is *b@ll@cks* imo. Maybe one day the roof will cave in, but none of us can do a single thing about that so we like to enjoy our position while it lasts, hence the reason you get so much grief on this site by kiwis. We don’t really like being told in a condescending fashion(whether you intend it that way or not) how things are going to turn sour, I don’t think anyone wants that.

I probably won’t even think it a massive deal if 1 starting AB walks, I’ll start to worry if they go in groups and we start to lose 30% of our games. Until then, happy days. :occasion5:

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And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:34 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
loosechange wrote:
Players have, and always will leave, that’s just reality really. I think the quality might be slightly better but I also think the kiwi production line has improved out of sight as well, I think part of the reason that grass roots were heavily invested in was to try and combat the amount of players leaving.

The concern shown by the big wigs, seems pretty similar to the concern that’s always been shown imho. It’s always been a concern, and thankfully the NZRFU have tried to keep a step ahead, fingers crossed that will continue, don’t really see much evidence of it changing tbh. The other kiwis on here, like me, have heard it all before, we’ve been hearing it since the 80’s in NZ. It’ll be 30 years on after the next WC, and if we win(big if, nothing is certain) then all the talk over the last 35 years was just media trumped up *b@ll@cks*. Even if we don’t win, it still is *b@ll@cks* imo. Maybe one day the roof will cave in, but none of us can do a single thing about that so we like to enjoy our position while it lasts, hence the reason you get so much grief on this site by kiwis. We don’t really like being told in a condescending fashion(whether you intend it that way or not) how things are going to turn sour, I don’t think anyone wants that.

I probably won’t even think it a massive deal if 1 starting AB walks, I’ll start to worry if they go in groups and we start to lose 30% of our games. Until then, happy days. :occasion5:


What are you talking about now? Kiwis to France (the title of this Stream) or the general migration concern as voiced by Ledrum?

I've had posts deleted on here that referred to the Ledrum debate... :and when I asked whether this was just a carry on from the closed thread in another guise :scratch:

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Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:52 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
Players have, and always will leave, that’s just reality really. I think the quality might be slightly better but I also think the kiwi production line has improved out of sight as well, I think part of the reason that grass roots were heavily invested in was to try and combat the amount of players leaving.

The concern shown by the big wigs, seems pretty similar to the concern that’s always been shown imho. It’s always been a concern, and thankfully the NZRFU have tried to keep a step ahead, fingers crossed that will continue, don’t really see much evidence of it changing tbh. The other kiwis on here, like me, have heard it all before, we’ve been hearing it since the 80’s in NZ. It’ll be 30 years on after the next WC, and if we win(big if, nothing is certain) then all the talk over the last 35 years was just media trumped up *b@ll@cks*. Even if we don’t win, it still is *b@ll@cks* imo. Maybe one day the roof will cave in, but none of us can do a single thing about that so we like to enjoy our position while it lasts, hence the reason you get so much grief on this site by kiwis. We don’t really like being told in a condescending fashion(whether you intend it that way or not) how things are going to turn sour, I don’t think anyone wants that.

I probably won’t even think it a massive deal if 1 starting AB walks, I’ll start to worry if they go in groups and we start to lose 30% of our games. Until then, happy days. :occasion5:


What are you talking about now? Kiwis to France (the title of this Stream) or the general migration concern as voiced by Ledrum?

I've had posts deleted on here that referred to the Ledrum debate... :and when I asked whether this was just a carry on from the closed thread in another guise :scratch:

I was talking about kiwis leaving, that was where the last thread went, not only France anymore. I don’t think it really matters anyway, does it? :scratch: Basically the NZRFU trying to stop players going.

I’ve been a bit mystified about some of the recently locked threads, the 2 about the Wales game/ TMO got locked and it didn’t even seem bad, though maybe some posts were out of order, and deleted while I was snoozing, no idea. I think before locking threads the admins should post a message about why, would clear things up.

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Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:19 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
loosechange wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
Players have, and always will leave, that’s just reality really. I think the quality might be slightly better but I also think the kiwi production line has improved out of sight as well, I think part of the reason that grass roots were heavily invested in was to try and combat the amount of players leaving.

The concern shown by the big wigs, seems pretty similar to the concern that’s always been shown imho. It’s always been a concern, and thankfully the NZRFU have tried to keep a step ahead, fingers crossed that will continue, don’t really see much evidence of it changing tbh. The other kiwis on here, like me, have heard it all before, we’ve been hearing it since the 80’s in NZ. It’ll be 30 years on after the next WC, and if we win(big if, nothing is certain) then all the talk over the last 35 years was just media trumped up *b@ll@cks*. Even if we don’t win, it still is *b@ll@cks* imo. Maybe one day the roof will cave in, but none of us can do a single thing about that so we like to enjoy our position while it lasts, hence the reason you get so much grief on this site by kiwis. We don’t really like being told in a condescending fashion(whether you intend it that way or not) how things are going to turn sour, I don’t think anyone wants that.

I probably won’t even think it a massive deal if 1 starting AB walks, I’ll start to worry if they go in groups and we start to lose 30% of our games. Until then, happy days. :occasion5:


What are you talking about now? Kiwis to France (the title of this Stream) or the general migration concern as voiced by Ledrum?

I've had posts deleted on here that referred to the Ledrum debate... :and when I asked whether this was just a carry on from the closed thread in another guise :scratch:

I was talking about kiwis leaving, that was where the last thread went, not only France anymore. I don’t think it really matters anyway, does it? :scratch: Basically the NZRFU trying to stop players going.

I’ve been a bit mystified about some of the recently locked threads, the 2 about the Wales game/ TMO got locked and it didn’t even seem bad, though maybe some posts were out of order, and deleted while I was snoozing, no idea. I think before locking threads the admins should post a message about why, would clear things up.

Loosie, fair comment

OK, in a nutshell and last word from me on the general subject ...

I prefer to listen ti the 'heads up' Lendrum who has a specific, direct role on the subject of concern in the NZRFU about player migration than an apparent belief in the history and status quo. His opinions are well voiced and intent to pre-emptively resolve but do express significant concern. The concern was also expressed by an important Executive of World Rugby.

that, im my opinion, is a fair comment on the subject?

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Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:33 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
Fair enough, like most topics on this site, time will tell.

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Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:41 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
On subject :

Article today concerning 2019 transfer market

Out of contract after W Cup :

Dagg, Retallick, A Smith, Savea, Coles, Lienert-Brown, Franks, Moody, Squire, Harris

CVs already in some circulation.

Of course a % will be salary gazumping, but that just inflates budgets etc ..

Toulon interested in Savea and Retallick very sought after.

NZ press apparently stating the SBW to go to RL again next Season as apparently been told he's not in AB Squad, ... is this true?

Please note that this post is entirely on subject and essence of this stream and Title.

A slight sidetrack ... other S Hemp players showing interest in Europe apparently include Hooper, Foley and very popular ... Folau and Retallick

I wont cause myself embarrassment by posting the french article concerned ;)

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Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
I’d be willing to bet my left *ballhook* that Brodie won’t be going anywhere after the WC, no facts to support that, just think he is very happy in the ABs and wouldn’t want to give up on the chance to be our GOAT lock.

Savea, if Julian, then he’ll definitley be heading north. Ardie is a 50/50.

Dagg is getting on, wouldn’t be surprised to see him go. Same with Franks.

A.Smith will be 30 after the WC, I reckon he is a bit like Brodie, could stay on for another cycle and try and become our GOAT 9.

Coles is a mystery, have to see how he goes in super rugby this year. If Aumua(sp) can get off the pies he will be the reason Harris leaves, but see what happens with Coles.

ALB is a great player, hope he stays.

Squire has had ample chances in black, he’s getting to the Victor Vito stage.

I don’t think Moody will go but like all these players, time will tell.

Haven’t read or heard anything about SBW.

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Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:51 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
It'll be like a family reunion out there.

Brothers, cousins, fathers? Perhaps not.

:thumbup:


Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:44 am
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Post Re: Kiwis to France
loosechange wrote:
I’d be willing to bet my left *ballhook* that Brodie won’t be going anywhere after the WC, no facts to support that, just think he is very happy in the ABs and wouldn’t want to give up on the chance to be our GOAT lock.

Savea, if Julian, then he’ll definitley be heading north. Ardie is a 50/50.

Dagg is getting on, wouldn’t be surprised to see him go. Same with Franks.

A.Smith will be 30 after the WC, I reckon he is a bit like Brodie, could stay on for another cycle and try and become our GOAT 9.

Coles is a mystery, have to see how he goes in super rugby this year. If Aumua(sp) can get off the pies he will be the reason Harris leaves, but see what happens with Coles.

ALB is a great player, hope he stays.

Squire has had ample chances in black, he’s getting to the Victor Vito stage.

I don’t think Moody will go but like all these players, time will tell.

Haven’t read or heard anything about SBW.


Agree with pretty much everything there.

SBW isn't going anywhere before the RWC - that was just *b@ll@cks* speculation from Aus NRL media.


Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:07 am
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