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France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings 
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Post France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Following their last-minute home loss to Ireland on Saturday, France have now dropped to an all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings. This is especially sad and ironic, given how French club rugby is the wealthiest and best-supported in the world, and also how much France used to dominate the Six Nations and used to beat the All Blacks more frequently than anyone else apart from South Africa and Australia. https://www.worldrugby.org/news/309264


Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:13 pm
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:26 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:49 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D




I'm genuinely confused though..... there are 30 pro clubs which is in the ballpark of England, as the Championship is really close to fully pro. The foreign players add quality to the leagues? The number of clubs surely provide opportunities for French players as there are over a thousand contracts available. Wales have 4 teams?

French age grade rugby is not spectacularly successful at under 20,i would have thought the French model of professional rugby in tandem with a well-orchestrated development programme would have been very successful. Access to players may have been a problem, but there seems far more wrong with their results than this.

Is the problem the fact that they feel the club game is paramount so that means they can afford to buy in players from anywhere in the world, so they neglect development? That is my only conclusion, i don't have the facts to know ?? If the French development system was as good as their club system theY would be exporting players who just fail to make it ??

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“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
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Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:06 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D




I'm genuinely confused though..... there are 30 pro clubs which is in the ballpark of England, as the Championship is really close to fully pro. The foreign players add quality to the leagues? The number of clubs surely provide opportunities for French players as there are over a thousand contracts available. Wales have 4 teams?

French age grade rugby is not spectacularly successful at under 20,i would have thought the French model of professional rugby in tandem with a well-orchestrated development programme would have been very successful. Access to players may have been a problem, but there seems far more wrong with their results than this.

Is the problem the fact that they feel the club game is paramount so that means they can afford to buy in players from anywhere in the world, so they neglect development? That is my only conclusion, i don't have the facts to know ?? If the French development system was as good as their club system theY would be exporting players who just fail to make it ??


Infiltration of ProDiv2 with foreigners is a high % especially S African and East European. A signicantl prevention opportunity fot development.

Every Pro team (30) have a development side, usually U23 and they have their own leagues ...should be a significant opportunity but the %foreigner barrier is difficult to break down.

The prime Academy level was centralised off to the FFR central Paris base and then reutned to Clubs at weekend. This has been seen to fail and is being revised.

Prime young players are quickly (too quick!?) promoted into the prime Pro level ...and U20 level is often denuded of best players at that level.

The message is continuous and it is Club rape and pillage and the foreigner aspect v inhibitive.

The Jiff is trying to address it is positive but SLOW, much sensitivity to Euro laws etc

International release levels have recently been significantly increased.

The Club dominance rules ok!

The potential is huge but unexploited sensibly

That above is just tips of various icebergs ...

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:52 pm
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Tony Panties wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D




I'm genuinely confused though..... there are 30 pro clubs which is in the ballpark of England, as the Championship is really close to fully pro. The foreign players add quality to the leagues? The number of clubs surely provide opportunities for French players as there are over a thousand contracts available. Wales have 4 teams?

French age grade rugby is not spectacularly successful at under 20,i would have thought the French model of professional rugby in tandem with a well-orchestrated development programme would have been very successful. Access to players may have been a problem, but there seems far more wrong with their results than this.

Is the problem the fact that they feel the club game is paramount so that means they can afford to buy in players from anywhere in the world, so they neglect development? That is my only conclusion, i don't have the facts to know ?? If the French development system was as good as their club system theY would be exporting players who just fail to make it ??


Infiltration of ProDiv2 with foreigners is a high % especially S African and East European. A signicantl prevention opportunity fot development.

Every Pro team (30) have a development side, usually U23 and they have their own leagues ...should be a significant opportunity but the %foreigner barrier is difficult to break down.

The prime Academy level was centralised off to the FFR central Paris base and then reutned to Clubs at weekend. This has been seen to fail and is being revised.

Prime young players are quickly (too quick!?) promoted into the prime Pro level ...and U20 level is often denuded of best players at that level.

The message is continuous and it is Club rape and pillage and the foreigner aspect v inhibitive.

The Jiff is trying to address it is positive but SLOW, much sensitivity to Euro laws etc

International release levels have recently been significantly increased.

The Club dominance rules ok!

The potential is huge but unexploited sensibly

That above is just tips of various icebergs ...

_________________
"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:19 pm
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Tony Panties wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D




I'm genuinely confused though..... there are 30 pro clubs which is in the ballpark of England, as the Championship is really close to fully pro. The foreign players add quality to the leagues? The number of clubs surely provide opportunities for French players as there are over a thousand contracts available. Wales have 4 teams?

French age grade rugby is not spectacularly successful at under 20,i would have thought the French model of professional rugby in tandem with a well-orchestrated development programme would have been very successful. Access to players may have been a problem, but there seems far more wrong with their results than this.

Is the problem the fact that they feel the club game is paramount so that means they can afford to buy in players from anywhere in the world, so they neglect development? That is my only conclusion, i don't have the facts to know ?? If the French development system was as good as their club system theY would be exporting players who just fail to make it ??


Infiltration of ProDiv2 with foreigners is a high % especially S African and East European. A signicantl prevention opportunity fot development.

Every Pro team (30) have a development side, usually U23 and they have their own leagues ...should be a significant opportunity but the %foreigner barrier is difficult to break down.

The prime Academy level was centralised off to the FFR central Paris base and then reutned to Clubs at weekend. This has been seen to fail and is being revised.

Prime young players are quickly (too quick!?) promoted into the prime Pro level ...and U20 level is often denuded of best players at that level.

The message is continuous and it is Club rape and pillage and the foreigner aspect v inhibitive.

The Jiff is trying to address it is positive but SLOW, much sensitivity to Euro laws etc

International release levels have recently been significantly increased.

The Club dominance rules ok!

The potential is huge but unexploited sensibly

That above is just tips of various icebergs ...



:thumbup: Thanks..... French rugby seems to have a lot going for it, but they obviously shoot themselves in the foot.

_________________
"Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”
“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for


Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:27 pm
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Blindside wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D




I'm genuinely confused though..... there are 30 pro clubs which is in the ballpark of England, as the Championship is really close to fully pro. The foreign players add quality to the leagues? The number of clubs surely provide opportunities for French players as there are over a thousand contracts available. Wales have 4 teams?

French age grade rugby is not spectacularly successful at under 20,i would have thought the French model of professional rugby in tandem with a well-orchestrated development programme would have been very successful. Access to players may have been a problem, but there seems far more wrong with their results than this.

Is the problem the fact that they feel the club game is paramount so that means they can afford to buy in players from anywhere in the world, so they neglect development? That is my only conclusion, i don't have the facts to know ?? If the French development system was as good as their club system theY would be exporting players who just fail to make it ??


Infiltration of ProDiv2 with foreigners is a high % especially S African and East European. A signicantl prevention opportunity fot development.

Every Pro team (30) have a development side, usually U23 and they have their own leagues ...should be a significant opportunity but the %foreigner barrier is difficult to break down.

The prime Academy level was centralised off to the FFR central Paris base and then reutned to Clubs at weekend. This has been seen to fail and is being revised.

Prime young players are quickly (too quick!?) promoted into the prime Pro level ...and U20 level is often denuded of best players at that level.

The message is continuous and it is Club rape and pillage and the foreigner aspect v inhibitive.

The Jiff is trying to address it is positive but SLOW, much sensitivity to Euro laws etc

International release levels have recently been significantly increased.

The Club dominance rules ok!

The potential is huge but unexploited sensibly

That above is just tips of various icebergs ...



:thumbup: Thanks..... French rugby seems to have a lot going for it, but they obviously shoot themselves in the foot.


In summary BS, if they are v good they rush 'em and even spoil them early (recent examples 19 yr old 10 v Ireland, Tolofua..Hooker.. capped at 19 and the subject of licence rejection at 22 yr old this 6Ns because of neck problems, current Fra hooker back up Chat I think capped at 19 he's a fine specimen and currently ok (absent in 6ns because of flu), Ntamack 18 yr old 10 played for Gra Baabas that beat NZ team in AIs...etc . Camara in current Fra team was capped too early ...but back now ) or they don't really wait and allow others develop but make life difficult with them because of 30 pro teams with too high a % of foreigners.

and, forgot to mention ... the TOP14 is bloody hard rugby and many suffer, cue Sexton who retrieved Ireland in time and Roberts who didn't make it etc ..) It is especially hard for development players to be weaned sensibly.

But, ... the french public love their Club and local rugby...

I'm afraid that we might see more of the same, hope not ...

PS I admit to hypocrisy ... I love Top14 Rugby

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:33 pm
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D

I think most kiwis appreciate that the frogs, poms and Japanese reward our older players by offering contracts etc, but that’s pretty much where it ends with the poms and frogs imho. I have always felt, and still do, that these two countries clubs don’t care at all about the international game, only for themselves and the board members. It could even be said that they don’t care about the players as well.

Regarding the RFU and FFR, does it even matter who has the most money? Because afaics, they are not in total control of the game in their respective countries, the money is in the club game I thought.

Is it true that the French clubs want rugby to go the same way as football? With the club comps ruling everything except for the WC?

_________________
Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:45 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
loosechange wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
loosechange wrote:
It’s not sad in my eyes, you reap what you sow. What’s interesting is the poms are the complete opposite, yet are pretty much on a par (it seems) when it comes to the clubs running the game. :dontknow:


There are differences:

30 Pro Clubs in France and bigger following in total at that level.

Significantly more foreigners in french Pro game :(

RFU much richer than FFR (FFR do not have their own Stadium)

More money and influence in the french Club game

France more attractive for S Hemp migrants? :D

I think most kiwis appreciate that the frogs, poms and Japanese reward our older players by offering contracts etc, but that’s pretty much where it ends with the poms and frogs imho. I have always felt, and still do, that these two countries clubs don’t care at all about the international game, only for themselves and the board members. It could even be said that they don’t care about the players as well.

Regarding the RFU and FFR, does it even matter who has the most money? Because afaics, they are not in total control of the game in their respective countries, the money is in the club game I thought.

Is it true that the French clubs want rugby to go the same way as football? With the club comps ruling everything except for the WC?


It does matter that the RFU are considerably more rich than the FFR because they are more able to promote their game at International level and in general.

The differential between Union and Club organisations is also important in terms of clout.

The real formative aspect is the EPCR because that is a case where the Clubs largely dominate in formal governance (although there are instances eg France where the Federation has ultimate legal clout). It is also a major fulcrum to promote Club level world wide and this is where the ultimate pressure will come from and the SA entry in Pro14 is important should they be included in the EPCR governance which I believe to be the longer term plan.

Loosie, I have described this in this way to try and describe how 'Club' rugby may promote and achieve it's end game. It's a planned evolution and it has started. There will inevitably be ways where the Union will resist, e.g it has already been suggested that that FFR might try and achieve 'Province/Regional ' representation at Euro level etc ...

I have studied this subject for a long time and the evolution/transition has been formative.

Other interesting aspect involve e.g how very big business is incorporating Rugby more formally into their business strategies. Racing/Real Estate and Bordeaux and Racing wine promotion projects are examples whilst Toulon exhibit how partnership with Local Govt can profit both.

Imo the Pro Rugby loss syndrome may well be turning.

Loosie, I have try and describe how the game is panning out and how just a 'going footy way ' is a false description. Closer to you I think that Japan W Cup will also be a game changer ...I know that the previously mentioned french club Presidents wine interests have already been actively involved in targeting their business interests there.

Finally, we now have extremely able Presidents of extremely profitable organisations are active and Union representation is no competition for them as far as business acumen is concerned.

Hope this helps :scratch:

PS People assume that I support the Club evolution, maybe they are wrong ;) I study it and I report accordingly ;) I am also interested and active on the total Pro Rugby front and not just of that in France.

PPS I don't see any W Rugby or Union people that inspire confidence other than W Rugby VP Pichot who, I believe, is good value and somewhat ahead of the game, whilst Billy Beaumont and his Badges reign the Unions are in a backward position.

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Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:16 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
Good reply that Tel, cheers. :occasion5:

I have no problems with a CL style club comp, it’d be awesome seeing the saders take on the might of the Scarlets! I’d be all for it! As long as it doesn’t take over the international game, and as long as fans don’t moan about having too many test matches while saying zero about the amount of domestic games.

Regarding Japan, rugby will never take off here, for a number of reasons. I can’t bloody wait though!

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Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:01 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
loosechange wrote:
Good reply that Tel, cheers. :occasion5:

I have no problems with a CL style club comp, it’d be awesome seeing the saders take on the might of the Scarlets! I’d be all for it! As long as it doesn’t take over the international game, and as long as fans don’t moan about having too many test matches while saying zero about the amount of domestic games.

Regarding Japan, rugby will never take off here, for a number of reasons. I can’t bloody wait though!


I look forward to a typically well organised and planned Japan W Cup.
I think the positive aspect is that Pro Rugby can sensibly use other countries than the favoured ones. This will promote the game and also provide favourable Pro Rugby potential revenue as big business becomes more interested.

Loosie ..on the Club front I think it is positive that FFR/LNR are now in discussion of playing some ProDiv2 games in Georgia.

That is the right level and a reform of the likes of french lesser pro rugby to include other country teams would be positive for all.

This, of course, is already the case of the Pro14 inclusion of SA rugby.

Maybe we'll see more international club rugby in 'home' leagues and that can only be good to help develop the game.

I remain disappointed that the EPCR are dragging their feet on a promised tier 3 level aspect.

Protected hierarchy based on traditional positioning is a killer in my opinion.

Managed properly it could be succeeded but I'm not that hopeful ... the filthy lucre will out and I think we'll see a very elite hierarchy maximising their clout.

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Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:41 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
loosechange wrote:
Good reply that Tel, cheers. :occasion5:

I have no problems with a CL style club comp, it’d be awesome seeing the saders take on the might of the Scarlets! I’d be all for it! As long as it doesn’t take over the international game, and as long as fans don’t moan about having too many test matches while saying zero about the amount of domestic games.

Regarding Japan, rugby will never take off here, for a number of reasons. I can’t bloody wait though!


I look forward to a typically well organised and planned Japan W Cup.
I think the positive aspect is that Pro Rugby can sensibly use other countries than the favoured ones. This will promote the game and also provide favourable Pro Rugby potential revenue as big business becomes more interested.

Loosie ..on the Club front I think it is positive that FFR/LNR are now in discussion of playing some ProDiv2 games in Georgia.

That is the right level and a reform of the likes of french lesser pro rugby to include other country teams would be positive for all.

This, of course, is already the case of the Pro14 inclusion of SA rugby.

Maybe we'll see more international club rugby in 'home' leagues and that can only be good to help develop the game.

I remain disappointed that the EPCR are dragging their feet on a promised tier 3 level aspect.

Protected hierarchy based on traditional positioning is a killer in my opinion.

Managed properly it could be succeeded but I'm not that hopeful ... the filthy lucre will out and I think we'll see a very elite hierarchy maximising their clout.

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Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:41 am
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
The WC will be one hell of a trip for anyone coming, cheap as too now. I’m hoping the fans come in droves as they won’t sell the games out otherwise. Big teams/ games are based in Tokyo and should sell out, the smaller games will be struggling to fill the stadiums if not many people travel.
For anyone reading this and you are thinking of coming to Japan next year, do! Possibly the best country on earth to visit, food is the bees *b@ll@cks*, people are awesome, cracking beer and cheap, and some amazing places to check out, both old and new.

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Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one, and fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around,
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:31 pm
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Post Re: France reach all-time low of 10th in the World Rankings
We've got some property for sale atm mate, if it sells we are coming to Japan for the cup 100%. I have already set aside the time.

Does anyone want a beach section on the Coromandel?


Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:54 am
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